Michael Kotutwa Johnson (01:31)
You know Hopi to me is ⁓ and what I understand it's conglomeration of many different clans that came that migrated to the southwest and stopped at places like Chaco Canyon and Mesa Verde, which are very pristine areas with a number of dwellings that one time was there and so. But it's basically a conglomeration of clans who have brought different ceremonies to form Hopi. so when when we were first being

we were settled in one village and then as clans started migrating off their migration path, they would be let in only if they were able to offer that society, that community something that could help them survive in that climate. so, so it's a collaboration of clans, it's, it's, it's primarily also an agricultural society, very intertwined agricultural society that, that things are looked upon with reverence and respect.

and things like that. For us to live in this environment where we only receive only six to 10 inches of annual rainfall a year with no irrigation and no pesticides, herbicides, or any of that stuff that's been in our modern day is very incredible. And what makes Hopi Hopi from my perspective is that of all the places that we chose to live, we chose there. We chose this hard lifestyle. And I think...

That's the beauty of Hopi. It's just that, you we could have lived anywhere else. We could have migrating on the East Coast or up in Canada where they had plenty of water, but we chose a place that didn't have that. And so it's come to tell us that, you know, it makes our society very resilient in many ways because we've really had to bear down in order to survive in this semi-arid region we call Northeastern Arizona up on the Colorado Plateau. And so it's kind of amazing. So, know, Hopi to me, like I

it's just a conglomeration of different clans all coming together for the benefit of community.

Andrew Valenti (03:24)
And some of what I've read about Hopi is there are some of the the oldest clans in what we call North America. Is that correct?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (03:33)
Yeah, that's

correct. You know, there's been a number of books. One of the books that I really like to highlight is called, I have it here on my shelf called Becoming Hopi. It was produced by the Hopi Culture Preservation Office over about a 20 year period. So it's very extensive on.

on the clan migrations and things like that. And I would highly recommend that for your readers if they really want to learn more about the clan migrations and what makes Hopi Hopi. you know, once again, though, it's in a book, you know, and so, you know, a lot of our traditions, of course, have always been passed from generation to generation orally. And so it's kind of nice to see a book. But, you know, there's still things in the book that won't be talked about because that's just the way it is with Hopi. And so Hopi is not always a very

divulging society sometimes they do keep things secret and those are according to the different clans because they have their own different ways of doing things and so as together as we are we still have our separateness in some ways that allow us to you know obtain things that we need in life.

Andrew Valenti (04:29)
Glad you bring that up because I have read the book, Book of the Hopi by Frank Waters. Are you familiar with that one? ⁓ How do you, I'm curious to get your take on that book because.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (04:34)
Yes I am.

Well,

that's a good book. mean, it was also written, it wasn't really written by Hopi. It was interviews that Frank Waters did with, I think his name was Frederick Zerbeer or something. can't remember what that was, but it was a lot of that was that. And the accuracy, I would have to say, I mean, I'm not an anthropologist on that or anything like that. so you have to understand too, a lot of the early works that came out of Hopi were...

conducted with just a few people. And of course, probably more than likely without permission, except for the people who participated in the book and things like that. And so it's a very interesting read and I do like it. It does have its credence, it does have its factual basis. But this new book, I feel is a little bit more accurate as far as I'm concerned. But because this new book was produced by over a number of years and it had...

actual input from the advisory board and things like that, which in my mind was a good thing to do. So yeah, but I do like Frank Water's work though, I really do.

Andrew Valenti (05:41)
Yeah, that book. So I first, of all places, I was traveling in central Italy in a really small town called Labro. No cars are allowed there. And they had a free library. And in that free library was the book of the Hopi. So this was several years ago. And that's how I was introduced to the story of Hopi. And I was just blown away.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (06:00)
It's

a pretty remarkable story, right? mean, there's just a whole bunch of the whole ceremonial process and just, you know, the story of how we.

Came here and who we met here and how we were allowed to live here. I think was was a very, was a very important story and I still think it has a lot of credence today. For those 3 things that we were given for the, for the readers have never read the book in the hope be or any of that stuff. You know, there's there's a number of versions of this, but, the one that I've learned from my grandfather was, you know, that when we first, when we first wanted to come here, we weren't really allowed to come here. we were coming out from a different world from a third world they call it and

When we sent people up, the person who lived up here would not let us come because he knew what happened to human society before then. Finally, he let us come up here. And then when we came up here, he gave us a seed and a gourd of water and a planting stick and says, this is what you will need to survive in this climate that you have chosen to live in. But when he stopped, he also said,

You know, I give you these three things to help survive, but the most important thing that I can tell you is that you need to have faith in everything that you do. You know, and I think that still holds true today and and I I practice that in my own in my own way. You know, I mean, I think I think it wasn't until 2018 when I actually was going out there to plant a crop and I knew how dry it was just by looking at the different what they call biological indicators or weeds that had different rooting systems at different depths.

where able to tell how we're gonna do in the springtime and how our plants will do. And so anyway, so I wouldn't plant it anyway, I'm knowing that it was gonna be an extreme drought year and that we weren't gonna have the moisture that needed to even germinate the seeds because that's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to have faith in everything we do. So, we didn't plant, me and some other farmers, we didn't plant our whole fields, we just planted part of our fields. A lot of people didn't plant that year. But then in the August of that year of 2018, we had a massive.

rain dump out there for monsoon rains and that just that the corns came up two weeks later, you know, and then by October I was ready to harvest fresh corn, which would have I would have harvest probably in August or September, but it was neat. And so I was able to get about a nice truckload and give that to people, you know, and I thought that was that was really a had a lot of meaning behind it because it really.

It was really true what that guy said when we first came in that we didn't have faith in everything we do because if I didn't have that, know, what would I have produced? Nothing, right? So every year I plant and I think that's the beauty of it. I plant because not only am I giving myself, I'm also giving something back, you know, and that's the importance of what I do.

Andrew Valenti (08:37)
Beautiful. So when did you plant the corn seed that year?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (08:40)
put it in May like I usually do. We usually plant anyway for May and ⁓ people don't understand, know, it's very hard to raise a crop. We don't always raise a crop out here because we don't have rain usually from like March all the way till the end of July. And so for us to grow a type of maize that I was told when I went to Cornell University for my undergrad that I needed 33 inches of rainfall a year and we're able to do it on only six to 10 is remarkable.

Right, it's remarkable. These are the things that these beautiful heritage varieties give to you rather than the hybrid stuff that we're producing nowadays, which wouldn't even last a week. So it's kind of neat.

Andrew Valenti (09:14)
Amazing.

You define the odds. mean, at least what we conceive as the odds.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (09:21)
Yes, someone said it's like you're doing more with less. And I think that's true. We are doing more with less. that's because we're trained and our ceremonial systems are still intact. Not all of them, but a lot of them. And so we're still able to practice what we do. And we do pray. We pray for everybody. It's not just ourselves. so that's also another good point is that when we do these things, it's for everybody. It's to hold everybody and hold the world in balance in a lot of different ways.

Andrew Valenti (09:52)
other things that I've heard you say is that you're a 250th generation farmer.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (09:57)
Yeah, yeah, everybody that's kind of ironic because people will say, do you know that? I said, well, let's look at the time. Here we're here in the United States. We go way back. According to archaeologists, like in Old Oraibi was settled in 1100 AD, but we were here before that too. We were like in other areas throughout the United States. And we have a direct connection with the people down south because I really believe that we migrated from down there.

a long, long time ago. And so I could trace it all the way back because when I look at some of the symbolism that's down there, look at some of the varieties of maize or maize that they're raising down there and match them to what I have up here, they're very, very similar, except ours is a lot drought resistant. We don't need all the water because over time, over time, things adapt like we do. So I always make that claim. so, you know, that people say, how do you prove that? And I said, let's go look at the archaeological record.

because that's what science tells us to do. Let's go find the facts, but the facts are in my mind and they're in my oral teachings and those are the things that I rely on. And so it doesn't matter if we prove it or not. I just feel like that's just a positive thing to say.

Andrew Valenti (10:59)
I love it. that's, mean, that's faith too. That's faith in your heritage in in your, ⁓ traditions. Now tell me more about your childhood and the teachings that you received about farming and about Hopi and what that was like.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (11:13)
You know, I mean, was when I was a my dad was in the military for a long time, so I spent a lot of my life in the military, especially when I was younger. But, you know, we moved to Winslow. My dad moved to Winslow after he left the military and it was there that, you know, around age 10 that, you know, Winslow is about 70 miles from.

from the Hope Reservation where my grandfather lived at. And so in the summertime, my father, when I was about 10, used to just drop me off out of there. only, there was three kids in the family, me, I was the middle child, my younger sister and older brother. But for some reason he would drop me off out there. And I used to sit around and like, what am I gonna do out here? We only got one station on TV. And at that time we didn't have CDs or anything like that.

you know, or even podcast even or any of that stuff. And so was just kind of a barren thing out there. And I said, what am I going to do out here? And it was like, you know, my grandfather taught me a lot. He taught me how to farm. He learned a lot. You know, I think the most thing I took away from that were all the values I learned, the whole things of sharing hard work. ⁓

Just getting up in the morning, the importance of life, those things that at the time I kind of took for granted. But as I get older, the more I appreciate, the more I long to go back like I do every summer and plant.

and teach those things to the next generation. And so I learned mainly about values and the hard work. then one of the biggest things I've learned is that failure is okay. We don't always raise a crop like I said, but it was just those teachings, always to remember to give and always to remember. I remember when I was a little kid.

when we had a conference, this conference that we'd have in Prescott, Arizona, we would always have it, but it lasted about a week and my grandfather would always buy food. He'd always buy food for everybody for the whole conference. And then I asked him, I said, why do you do that? And he says, because I don't wanna see anybody go hungry. Think about that. And I still carry those words with me today, I don't wanna see anybody go hungry. So that frames a lot of my work and what I'm doing here at the University of Arizona. And I carry that. So those values that I was taught

as young as you talk to most people who remember their childhood in a good way. Not everybody had a great childhood, but just to remember those things and to hold on to those things when there isn't as much light out there as we'd like to have it, it's a beautiful thing. And so that's actually what I learned when I was growing up.

Andrew Valenti (13:28)
So did your grandfather have, was he a full-time farmer? Did he farm in the way that you do now?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (13:35)
He wasn't a full-time, he was probably one of the best ones I know. I he could plan anything to grow. And I used to wonder, how do you do this? Why do you do this? Especially when he was older, he planned it all the way till he's about...

89 and then he then he didn't plant that summer and then he passed away shortly after that and I said man this guy's out there working with us and he's he would just sing songs, know, Hopi songs to the corn and talk to the plants and We'd get up early in the morning and go out there and I just he was a great farmer and ⁓ and it's just learning these techniques and you know at the time when you're young You don't really ask what you're doing, you know, you don't say well, why am I planting so deep or what? Why don't we put just more than one kernel per hole? Why do we put multiple?

kernels per hole? Why is our spacing six feet apart from our plant clusters rather than the conventional 14-inch? And I didn't really ask those questions until I went to Cornell and then everybody wanted to know about my system and I said I couldn't explain it. know, like what are your soil types or you know, what is your physiology of your plants or what's the genetic material? So I'm like, man, what is this about? You know, it's kind of put off a little bit because I'm like,

When your grandfather tells you to do something, you do it and you learn from it. And that's what it's about. It's about repetition, going in over and over again. And we have 3,000 years of repetition in one location. So we've got a system that's pretty solid. And so that's kind of amazing when you think about it.

Andrew Valenti (14:59)
So it was passed down to your grandfather from his ancestors as well.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (15:04)
Yep,

yep, it's always been that way, you know, and it's always been with the planting stick. We do have modified tractors now that can plant at that depth, but it takes away a lot too. But we've always done that. I mean, some people vary from technique to technique, but it's always that plant, that beautiful planting stick and those beautiful seeds that bring life to this world.

Andrew Valenti (15:28)
Tell me about the planting stick.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (15:30)
Well, the planting stick, they call it a soya. It's a planting stick that looks like it's from a grease wood plant they call it. It's got little indentations all over it. And it's just a beautiful thing because they also use that as what they call a ladder at Hopi. They put that into a person's grave and that's the way to release his soul up to. ⁓

And so it just kind of has, it's both signifies both life and death. And I think that's the beauty of it. It's in balance. know, a lot of Hopis is trying to be in balance. That's what you're trying to do with your life is being balanced. And I think, you know, Frank Waters talks about that and some other, some other authors that talked about that importance of balance and how to, you know, how does keep us on straight. Because in reality, we're not just keeping ourselves straight. We're actually trying to keep other people in the world in line too. And just trying to make sure we have that balance.

Andrew Valenti (16:27)
So talking about some of the, the more technical aspects of your planting, you've talking about planting really deep. and you probably didn't even realize this until you started seeing more conventional farming methods that, yeah, I guess I am putting these seeds really deep. So how deep are you planting your seeds?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (16:46)
inches to a foot and a half deep some years. It depends on where the moisture's at. And you can go down there and dig that in there with the shovel or something. You can find that moisture. But a lot of it has to do with just, like I said, looking at the different types of weeds that are on the ground, if you want to call them that, or different type of plant life. Because some of those have different rooting depths. And the shallowest one is called ma'uvi, or snakeweed. And so that's...

that has a very maybe a four inch depth or five inch depth. And so it's easy when those things are green up in the summertime, they're able to be able to plant. our moisture is not that deep, so we don't have to plant that deep, you know. And but then there's times where like last year again, I didn't see any of those things greening up. And I said, oh, man, we're not going to have a good year. We didn't have any raise anything this year. And so, you know, and that's OK, too. Like I said, it's just the way it goes.

crop failure is nothing new to us. We're not economically dependent on that like the rest of the people here in the United States who are having trouble right now just trying to sell their soybeans and things like that. And it's just disastrous. I think it's just looking at the techniques and the planning depth. And as I got to Cornell, I got to say, all these techniques from the clustering to just the spacing.

you know, in the depth, it's all dependent upon soil moisture. It all has to relate to soil moisture. Even when your crops are about just a foot high, either corn crops or bean crops, whatever, you just thin them out. You thin them out because that's the way you're supposed to do, just conserve that soil moisture so they don't outcompete each other. And I think because we plant so deep, at least with corn, that when you plant 10 to 12 kernels per hole,

at that depth, allows them to, with all work together, to force to come up from that depth, you know, and they all pop up and it's a beautiful thing. And so there's just these techniques are very well thought about, they're very well trialed, they're proven. And so they still work, they still work today. And I could just see the people a long time ago doing the same thing. So it's kind of neat to use your planting stick and your seeds. And if you need to add water, usually put it in your mouth, know, wet and moist with your mouth and you put it back into the soil and.

It's just the way it's been done. There's something about that connection from the past to the present to the future, I think, is the beauty of what we do out there at Hopi.

Andrew Valenti (19:01)
I'm glad that you brought that up. That's something that I've so I've been gardening for two decades myself. and something that I've heard and have not been able to find any information on is putting the seeds in your mouth, using that saliva, you know, having that spiritual connection with the seed and yourself and planting. one thing that I've heard is that, and this hasn't been proven of course by science, but

I believe it. have faith that this is true. That when the seed interacts with your saliva, it's reading your DNA. And so when that plant grows, it's growing specifically for you to provide certain nutrients for you. So in your experience, there, tell me about the connection that you have when holding the seeds in your mouth and more of that intimate spiritual connection when you're planting.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (19:48)
For me, you're just expressing gratitude and humbleness by doing that. I don't know about all the DNA stuff. That's first time I heard that. That's very interesting though. I wouldn't know it's very interesting. And so, you know, I mean, we have a saying and Hopi says, we are like corn. And we are because all the plants, from what I understand, the words in Hopi that correspond to the different plant parts like the stem and the...

the leaves and all correspond to the parts of the body too. And so it's kind of neat when you look at that. And I just feel like when you put that in your mouth, you're giving something back, you're also giving life to this and you're accepting life and you're exercising the faith, the true faith that you have by doing that. So to me, it's it's a spiritual connection, but it's also a very physical one too. And I think that's where the intimacy comes in. It's a very physical nurturing.

relationship. It's like preparing those seeds to rest in that soil for a while and then get that warmth and come up, like a person would out of a womb. And it's just a beautiful thing to think about when you look at it from that perspective.

Andrew Valenti (20:59)
Yeah. And practically with just the, it's like a pre-germination.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (21:03)
Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. If you want to. I like the science. love I'm a scientist and I like the scientific terms. But, you know, things like this, you know, I wonder sometimes, you know, how, how are we? We're seems to me sometimes we seem to disvalidate something, you know, or we seem to take away the importance of it. Are are are are the ways of knowing from that because we we make it too technical.

You know, it's like traditional ecological knowledge, big word out there, been out there for a while, you know. And I call it just the things my grandfather taught me, you know, it's just, it's a big difference, you know, and I'm like, okay, let's look at this, you know, and what are we doing? And a lot of it to me, you know, named nomenclature and all that stuff is very egocentric in a lot of ways too. It's just not, it's just not.

supposed to be like that, at least how I feel. We need to just accept things as they are and develop in their own mind and, know, and see the beauty of it, be grateful for it. I think that's how we just go our different directions sometimes.

Andrew Valenti (22:03)
Yeah. And, know, just to bring up one thing that you mentioned, when looking for that rainfall, you, you're observing, right? You're, can see certain plants that have grown and you come to know those plants and how deep their roots go and how much moisture there is in the soil. And that's just a great lesson in observation, just seeing what's happening and taking those cues.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (22:24)
And I think observation is the key. That's the key to science.

for, for, for, to start off with that, but it's also a key to learning how to survive in an environment that isn't really too human friendly at times. And, and by doing that, you're able to slow yourself down enough to say, maybe this might help us. Maybe it won't, you know, and I think that's, that's the key to observation on many levels. And, and that's the beauty of it. I mean, you know, when you're, when you're in a society that's kind of isolated apart from everything else, you really have to understand that. And I, I, and I would hark you back on just the value of place.

You know, when we look at indigenous styles throughout the globe, you know, not only are those indigenous societies have the highest rates of biodiversity in the globe, not only the biodiversity, but they also have the highest language richness in the globe that combines with that. Now you have to ask yourself, well, why is that? It's because of the relationship that has been established.

with their own environment over decades that allows them to be like that. That everything has a name. And so when you have a name, you have to also have a vocabulary that goes with it, right? And so it's the beauty of it. It's just that, it's just, I wouldn't call it simple, but it's just that intricate and it's kind of neat to look at it.

Andrew Valenti (23:38)
Are there any examples that you know of within the Hopi language? Is that correct to say? Is Hopi also language?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (23:47)
Yeah, Hopílavayi,

you know, there's the thing with the Hopílavayi the Hopi language is that it's just, it's, it's, ⁓ even with your, like, we have 13 different villages out there and we have three different Mesa's, which these villages are on top of or surrounds. and even in the, within that, and they're only about like five, five miles apart, 10 miles apart. And then one's about 45 miles from the, from the.

the oldest villages. it's just, and it's kind of unique because it's not that people can't understand each other, but the dialects are different. You know, it's spoken just a little bit different on one mesa to the next. And it's just different. And you know, I think that's has to do with just, know, as the clans came in, they all came from different areas and they did those types of things. And so it's just unique. It's very unique. There's no, there's no,

Future or there's no past tense. It's all talked in the present. It's very it's very full of adjectives It's a very descriptive language So like when you're going to say when you're when you're asking somebody something you don't go up to them and say hello But you kind of describe their action like if are you eating like um noosto? Or, Are you walking around um wynemwa You know you you and then they respond back to that, you know in

It's kind of unique like that. So it's always, it's always there. It's always, it's always in the present. And I think that's the beauty of Hopi because, you know, when you're going up there and you're telling stories or people are telling stories to you, it sounds like it's right there and it's kind of neat. It's kind of neat, but it's, it's a very, it's a very life lesson thing too, because we should live in the present sometimes. It's great to remember the past because that's where it's all that. It's what we learn from. And, it's good to think about the future, but at sometimes you wonder if you get caught up in the worriness of the future.

So it's good to just resolve yourself in the present, plant in the present, you know? And things will come out of that, you know? Just your actions right now will bring forth actions after that, you know? And it's just kinda neat.

Andrew Valenti (25:42)
beautiful. I love that. It's profound. It's I mean, that gives it's it's the whole be here now thing, right?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (25:48)
Yeah, pretty much I guess, know, it's a new someone has come up with that slogan. I always like to say with people, you know, we've we've put up this 3000 years ago.

Andrew Valenti (25:55)
Yeah, it's just somebody else. Yeah, somebody else tag.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (25:58)
That

is somebody else tagged it. That's a that's as true.

Andrew Valenti (26:01)
But I think it just gives credence to the action, to the idea of being present, being in the now. It's beautiful thing. it's a ⁓ global lesson.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (26:12)
Yes it is.

Andrew Valenti (26:13)
Now, ⁓ yeah. with that question though, are there any unique words within agriculture or, even the word for corn that you can share?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (26:23)
You know, it's like, well, natwani is like, it's like the harvest. It's like the, it's like the food. it's, a community, word. There's a, there's actually a agriculture organization out here. I hope you called the Natwani Coalition, which is, which is basically that the food, bringing the food, it's all that. That's all the combination of the harvest. It's things like that. qaa’ö is, is, is the word for corn. It's kind of a, it's a different, there's different, there's different variation of course, different dialects on that, but it's, it's just.

It's just a very descriptive way of looking at things. And I think it's, know, there's, they have a Hopi dictionary now, but, and it's good. It's really good. But the thing is with that, even then it's just people complain about it. Well, this is a written in third mesa dialect or second mesa dialect. See the politics coming to things too. think that's people we don't understand. We have politics out here too at Hopi too. It's just, it's like that. It's like that everywhere, unfortunately, but it's just the way it is.

You know, when it comes down to just getting together for the ceremonies and the social dances we have here in the summertime and throughout the winter, it's very beautiful because people actually get together to do these things, to help each other out like we're supposed to be. We let the politics down and we're able to carry on what we're supposed to be doing. that's, to me, that's just, you know, just trying to hold the world to not only in balance, but just trying to hold ourselves in balance, especially now when we have all these modern things around us, you know, trying to adapt to.

those things that are given to us that sometimes are good and sometimes aren't.

Andrew Valenti (27:55)
I'm curious to hear about some of these ceremonies, because from some of the things that I've read, corn is essential. And corn meal especially.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (28:03)
Yeah, I can't go too into the ceremony aspects of things. I can only go into parts of that, you know, like, because I'm not allowed to do that. I'm not supposed to do that. I was told not to do that. Yeah. And so, but you know, the things like the things that are used are in the ceremonies do come from corn. I mean, like you have the six different directions you probably read about. Those are all, you know, they're not only the the the west, east, you know, ours is northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest, and then up and below. And so each of those each of those

there's different varieties that correspond to those directions. And so even with the corn, it's ground up, prepared by the women in a certain way that allows it to be used for prayer meal. it's used in our kachina dances and ceremonies and things like that that are very important to us. It just has, like I said, that life and death connotation. Even our baby-naming ceremony with our sweet corn, which I do talk about, it's just...

the ladies prepare that sweet corn pudding for the newborn infant. And then they have a baby naming ceremony and they raise that child up and put a small little piece of sweet corn pudding in their mouth to actually connect them to where they're from. And so it has deep meaning in it. And one of the ladies was telling me one time that she was approached by one of her friends who just was kind of...

having a good, not kind of laughing, but just kind of saying, you guys must be trying to protect your corn. You got these streamers out there and all the stuff. And she says, you know, she says, you know, that's, that is kind of funny, but you know, she said, it's not that funny because she says, you know, if a farmer doesn't raise a crop, know, if the men don't raise the crops, then where are our ceremonies at? I mean, even, she says, even like when we have these weddings, because they have so much, Hopi weddings revolve so much of what they call this payback or.

or this endowment, it's just, if you don't have the corn, you have to cancel the wedding. And if that's how integrated it is, and it goes back to my premise, we are like corn. So when she told me, without corn, Michael, we are not Hopi That's profound because that is so true because it's so integrated into our society. And it's really something to think about that.

we would value something so much and have so much reverence for, but then when you go out there look at what's being grown elsewhere in the Midwest, where's the reverence at? Where's the respect? Where's your tie-in? And to me, if you're a society that needs to survive, you need to have that tie-in. You need to have that disciplinary approach and those values associated with those things that give life to everything, not just the wallet.

And that's how I look at it in that way.

Andrew Valenti (30:48)
Now as a corn farmer, do you distinguish certain areas of the field that will be ceremonial corn or is it all planted with a

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (31:00)
No, it's all planted with the same, you know, it's all planted with the same and it's the women who have the key part in that we're out there maintaining it and making sure it grows okay and keeping it, keeping critters and stuff like that at bay. But it's the women, once the harvest leaves the field, it's the women that actually take care of that and go through all those things, what's going to be used, what won't be used. They'll set aside certain things like mother ears which are perfect ears of white corn that are

filled with kernels all the way to the top and they'll know what to look for and they'll save seed that we'll plant for next year on all the different traits that they look at. I still don't know all those traits. mean, that's not my job as a Hopi farmer to do that. It's the women's job. And I'm not saying that from a gender standpoint of view. I'm just saying it because that's the way it's always been. And it has to do a lot with holding things in balance like I always talk about.

So that we're a society that is very still very matrilineal in those aspects. And so, because for example, the women own the fields, they own a lot of things that they look out after those things, they go to the seed selection. So they're a very integral part of this system that has to be in balance in order for it to thrive. And it has to had to be in balance for it to last for 3000 years in this particular location that we call Hopi now.

Andrew Valenti (32:18)
And in all these 3,000 years, has this land always been so arid?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (32:24)
Yes, it has. You know, I don't you know the stories that my grandfather we used to have a little bit more rainfall and also the washes that that cut through their. Seasonally, like during monsoon rains have cut down really deep and so they're not as it's not as well. Call well inundated with moisture as it used to be. Things have changed over time. I mean, that's that's we've had.

periods of 200 year droughts out there at Hopi and we're still out there. And so it has changed. It goes back and forth. It fluctuates. You know, we can get into the whole climate question of climate change and what's the effect on your crops right now. And I would say, let's go ask the people 200 years ago, what's the effect on that? You know, of course it's the same because those things are needed in our society. I'm not one to bash climate.

climate science and say, this is just another cycle because I believe we are contributing to it in some ways. But I just feel like when you go out there and you talk to the Hopi people and you say, look, you guys experiencing climate change, a lot of them don't even know what that is. And it's not because they've experienced these things before. They were told these things were gonna happen. So it's all about that too. It's this lived experience.

that over 99 % of United States has never been through. And honestly, we're not telling people how to adapt to these things. We're just putting up scientific stuff that says, okay, we're proving this. Yes, climate change is happening, but what are we showing? We're not showing anybody how to adapt. Hopi's always adapting. Most indigenous societies are always adapting because they have to in order to survive. And they have the knowledge and the experience from past times.

that they can bring that back forth again. And that's the beauty of it again, too. It's just looking at things differently. know, it's not everything's just open and shut. You know, so we have to kind of look at that a little

Andrew Valenti (34:18)
Yeah, mean, change happens. ⁓

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (34:20)
Age

does happen. My God, it happens. It's what we do about it and what we tend to want to do about it is the important thing. Do we sit there and just feel sorry for ourselves? Do we get up and try to do something

Andrew Valenti (34:33)
it is relative and I think it's a beautiful thing to, to look back at a culture like Hopi that goes so far into the past. that's just seen so much change. And like you said, there have been 200 year droughts. That's, know, not one person is going to experience that 200 year drought. You know, that's.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (34:51)
Nah.

Andrew Valenti (34:52)
That's many generations. And so it's all relative. We just need to live with the earth and how it's doing.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (35:00)
Yeah, and you know, and I think, you know, some of those droughts, you know, and things like that, we've, we've always, there's always been somebody to help you, but some of them had to also go to other villages like in New Mexico to stay over there for a while so they could raise things, right? And so it goes back to that, you know, you don't just go wandering around the wilderness out there, you go find community that can help you. You know, what they, what's the old saying, a village raises a child or something like that. You know, it's true.

You know, we need to take care of each other. And so when things happen, you go over there and you, and you, and you can say, Hey, you know, this is going on. Can you help us in there? You know, yeah, we can help you, you know, but you're not going to get help if you just sit there on the rock. You know, I don't know. Maybe we could create it yourself. I have no idea. But to me, that's the importance of community. It's, it's, it's understanding that and Hopi's deep in community. They're deep.

You know, and that's that's that's the importance of that too. It's you know there I love individualism individual sometimes, but you know I also just have the importance of putting the community first and what it takes to do that and the sacrifices one has to make because you know when you do those things you're also you're also not you're not only sacrificing you know.

Your ideals, but you're really you're really also building up yourself to your your your you're allowing yourself to to put on those things you need to help other people and create opportunities by doing that. And that's and that's that's what I like to do most of the time.

Andrew Valenti (36:21)
And by branching out, you know, by, by traveling to a different state or, you know, many hundreds of miles away, you're going to be returning with new information.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (36:31)
Yes, she will be in some food so that she can survive, man. mean, that's what it is. And so,

Andrew Valenti (36:36)
Hey.

Now, you have a story about an 800-year-old corn seed.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (36:43)
I do. I do. love to hear that. This has been published in a couple of... what the... Here on the U of A website and then another, I forgot what the name of that, Good Food Arizona. I think that's the other place. But it was just... This was seed that I was heard about. And then I happened to, from a colleague of mine up in Flagstaff, and she told me of this...

This guy who had been given the seed by a guy who was who she knew who was kind of like kind of like, you know, just getting older now. But apparently what apparently what he did was when we have we have this place out here called Lake Powell. It's it's up on the Colorado River. There's a dam there. I believe it's Hoover Dam that back in the 60s. Glen Canyon was was was was had a dam put in in on bid. But before that dam. ⁓

was put in, they did an archeological investigation and they found over 2000 archeological sites. Those are just the ones they found. And so as that dam was built and then that water started to rise, there was a gentleman, spent about at least a year out there, if not longer, kayaking, living out there. And as the water level started to rise, he looked in the distance and he saw some caves up high.

And so he kayaked over there and he walked in there and he said that in the sand buried down deep were these corn cobs. And I don't know how he found them, but he did. Maybe it was a jar or something like that, but he found these different ⁓ corn cobs. And there are these really small little strawberry vanilla colored corns with small kernels on them. And then he said, took them out of there and he kept them. And he gave some to her. He actually grew some out too.

And so, but I was able to get a hold of those and then I took them home to Hopi and I planted them. The first year I planted them like I would everything else, six inches, eight inches down and they never came up. And so the second year I got to thinking, well, this was on the Colorado River at the time when they would have planted, the water would have been subsided. They wouldn't have had to go that deep because there would have been plenty of moisture in that soil. So this, that last year, two years ago actually, I put them in only about an inch deep.

with water to wet the soil and they came up. They came up in about a week, two weeks later and I nurtured those puppies. You know, out of the eight to 10 kernels I put in there, I maybe had four come up and I nurtured those all summer long and put cages around them and they got to be about four feet and then he produced those beautiful strawberry colored ears. You know, and I got to thinking about that and so, you know, just recently I went to the museum.

Archaeological Museum in Mexico, New Mexico, and I was looking for seeds because it's part of my study and what I do and and I and all they can was burnt cops, you know, and but those cops when they brought him out work those small ones again. And I'm like, man, this is this is this holds fact, you know, and it's just kind of neat to think about that that, you know, these these corn seeds that I have have memory, you know, it goes back to that putting that stuff in your mouth. They remember.

You know, and when you're there talking to him and they're nurturing them, they know you give a dang, you know, and they grow, you know, and it's kind of neat to see that and to harvest that. know, towards the end of the season, you know, I was, you know, I saw I put these cages around then once one winter summer, I went out there and one day I went out there and some I can see some of the cob was starting to get eaten. I said, I just harvest them right away because I said, man, I can't wait to I can't wait all the way because I got to get them out because these.

little rats that get in there after them. And so it's just like that. You you take care of your kids, right? That's that's what I look at, corn and all my plants. They're like children to me. So I take care of them. And that's and they gave me those beautiful things. They made me feel so happy, you know, just like children again. You know, it's the beauty of that. It's the beauty of holding that little that little that little cob right there in your hand and knowing it's going to be safe. I think that's that's the beauty of it.

Andrew Valenti (40:41)
There's so much satisfaction in growing your own food.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (40:45)
Yeah,

there is. is. And it's just the, I mean, I can't express myself enough, you know, to see the change in people's faces, even when they go to an apple orchard and pick an apple or, or, you know, like you said, you know, have a little garden if they can and harvest something and put that on the table. I mean, there's, it's a lot of hard work. I mean, it's, it's not an easy thing to do with that type of way. I mean, especially gardening, as you know, you've got to deal with pests, weeds.

you know, everything else like that. it's, and then sometimes things don't happen, they get destroyed. And then you're like, ⁓ man, you know, but you never give up. You never give up. That's the main thing Never give up. Just do it again. You know, you'll get it there. You'll get it.

Andrew Valenti (41:21)
Yeah, you know, this is something that I say a lot and I like to say it all the time. But one of my one thing that I wish is that everyone in the world at least once in their life to grow a garden.

For many reasons. But the two main reasons that I believe is, one, so that you have that satisfaction of eating something that you grew yourself. But then two, so that you know how hard it is to grow something. And that gives you more respect for the farmers out there who are growing on scale to feed everybody.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (41:54)
Yeah, and I think, you know, I think my mind is, is that, you know, I, I, you know, there's always, you know, the regenerative agriculture movement that's out there, which, you know, I tend to agree with a lot of cases. And then there's a conventional method out there that people are doing and have been doing, which basically dominates the globe, you know, and it's crazy practices. But when I talk to the farmer, you know, when I talk to the gardener, the farmer, like the values are there.

You know, they're doing this because they're trying to survive. They're trying to feed their families. That's what they know how to do. It's an honest, it's an, to them, it's an honest way of making money. And I appreciate that. You know, what I don't appreciate is the corporations that get in the way, that tie them into this system that is basically based upon quantity and efficiency that sometimes hurts those values.

⁓ And that's where I'll take them. So I'll never get on the air wherever I'm at and bash a conventional farmer for farming because that's what they're doing. That's what they've been taught to do. Now some of them tried to move away from that and I praise them on that. But we have to remember here, the regenerative agriculture is not something new, okay? It's not something new. And it's basically designed to fix something that we as human society have messed up.

You know, we, it wasn't, it wasn't the indigenous farmer or the beginning farmer who over blasted their soils or who did all that. It was, it it was, we were just trying to fix it, right? And it's just, and that's what regenerative agriculture, it's a beautiful way of doing things, but especially a self-repair type of activity now. And, but we need to go back to that because our soils have life, they're important to us. also.

that whatever our plants, whatever we raise is uptaken by that plant. And so basically it goes back to those saying we're eating what we grow and what our soils are giving to us. And so that's why it's important for that movement to try to repair the damage that we as human beings have caused. And so that's, leave it at that.

Andrew Valenti (43:54)
Yeah, well, I think the important part of that word is the re, because like you said, repair, regenerate. It's a return to the way that things were.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (44:01)
Yeah, that is.

Supposed to be yeah. But it's a hard way to return because we're so, like you said, you wish you could have every person experience that. Imagine if we had every person gardening if they could. Where would we be? We'd be a lot healthier. We'd be a lot more communicative. It'd be a lot, in my mind, it'd be a lot more of a better society. And that's the way it is. But your idea, I appreciate that. That's good way to look at things.

Andrew Valenti (44:30)
Well, I agree with you though. mean, I think we would be in a much better place if more people were doing this. But also, you know, looking on the bright side, the conventional methods have only been around for so long. They haven't been around as long as Hopi has been farming in the natural way. As long as human beings have been farming, you know, the conventional, the pesticides, all the chemicals and even the deep tilling of the soil.

hasn't been around that long. know, in, in relation to agriculture itself, it's a tiny fraction. So our return from my, you know, hopeful perspective isn't, isn't that far off return to regenerate.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (45:11)
Yeah,

I don't see that that far off either. just feel like we're a society who is governed by choice and we're a society that's governed by self-will. so a lot of our natural instinct is to accept those things that are given to us all the time. We're inundated with marketing, we're inundated with all these different ways of doing things that it's becoming harder and harder to make the right choice.

And it seems like we're being removed from those things that you're talking about. And we don't even know it. We're just falling in line. And we got to change that really quick. Otherwise, it's not going to work out too good in the end. But I don't want to be a doomsdayer either. But I just feel like we really need to just kind of look within ourselves. Slow down enough. I mean, I think that's half of our problem. We're always rushing. We don't slow down enough to actually watch the little bug cross the road.

Just see what's gonna see. We'll see what we'll find on the other side, right?

A lot of my work that I do focus on traditional agricultural systems, what I call the revitalization of the American Indian agriculture.

system here in the United States. so, but I'm primarily focused on the Southwest currently because I just can't do the whole United States. We have different systems in different parts of the United States. Some have 50 inches of rainfall. You know, and I'm in the Merritt Southwest where a lot of these practices and a lot of the tribes that are still here, ⁓ are still here, that have been farmers down here. And so down here in Southern Arizona, for example, we have six tribes, five or six tribes that are producing a massive

of amounts of agriculture, mostly cotton and alfalfa. And so my job, what I'm trying to do right now is I'm trying to switch, okay, well, we have all this cotton and alfalfa, but where's the produce for your people? And they don't produce that. So I'm trying to find ways to look, let's use what you know, let's bring back some of that old farming things that you used to do, and let's bring some of it back.

Let's modernize little bit and let's produce food for your people here because that's the only thing that you're missing. You've got like, know, it's one of the tribes down there has the best water conservation system, bar none that I've seen across the globe as far as how they're conserving their water. I've seen one reservation where they have all the social infrastructure placed in place where they have, you know, housing for the foster kids coming out of the foster home and ⁓ in substance abuse places where people can go to when they're trying to get themselves better.

They have all that, but again, they don't raise their own food. And so I'm like, well, you have the water, you have the land, you have the rights, but what are we doing for the food for your people? Because one of the reservations has 80 % diabetic rate, another one has 46 year life expectancy rate. And so we need to figure out how to do this and work with these tribes so that we can use what they've been taught in the past, which is some good stuff. Let's put some of this stuff away for your people here.

Let's form our own like food sovereignty in the way it's supposed to be doing by feeding your own people and in ways enough that maybe you can, you you can also feed some of those surrounding communities, you know, and ⁓ that's the beauty of what I try to do. And it's not me going out there shaming anybody. It's just giving the facts and creating opportunities through the work and through the institution that I'm part of to actually deliver on that, to provide the technical assistance to make sure that that happens. And so that's what I do, you know.

But for me, it's also tying it right back into the cultural identity of the tribe. What were you raising before you had all this stuff? Down here at some of these reservations, they're direct descendants of the Ho'okam, which built these elaborate canals, which by the way, some are still in use today, way back, way before when. And so it's to look at that. So it's just trying to tie that connection together again. And it is a little difficult because of politics and everything, but...

At the end of the day, think I'll do what I need to do to get this done. And I'm pretty confident in that because of my approach. And I'm like you, my approach is like you, I was telling you, it's not to belittle somebody, not to shame somebody, but it's to actually encourage them and make sure they have the tools in order to do that. And that's what it's about for me.

Andrew Valenti (49:18)
It's approaching something with an open heart, optimism, and the tools and the information that will actually help somebody.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (49:26)
That's right. You I think that's why a lot of people like to talk to me, like to work with me because I'm that way. You know, I mean, I don't tend to judge. I do have my own ideas. I'll never sacrifice my own integrity. But for the most part, it's just, you know, helping people. And it's reminding myself of what it's about. It's reminding me of those lessons that I talked about that my grandfather taught me, the sharing, the encouragement, you know, building people up. You know, it's about that.

That's for what so that's what it's about for me. You know, I don't know. I can't get any clearer than that. don't think.

Andrew Valenti (49:56)
Now, one thing that I've seen is I've, and I even had this here in Italy, I'm finding Hopi seeds available through many different seed producers. in Italy, I grew some Hopi black seed sunflowers, which did really well. So I'm curious to get your take on how you feel about these ancient Hopi seeds being spread around the world and.

How do you, what's your take.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (50:22)
Well, my take on that is, you know, I just feel sometimes that, you know, I'm not a big person of exploitation and I don't want to go too deep in that part of the conversation. But I just feel like, you know, a lot of these companies that produce these things, for one of all, they don't propagate them properly. They make them water dependent. That's the first thing. The other thing is that they do fulfill the part of something that we should be doing and that's preserving our own seeds. Unfortunately, we don't do a good job of that at Hopi sometimes. And so I can see the value in that.

But at the same time, I'm wondering, well, where's the benefit to the tribe who's taken 10,000 years or longer to develop these seeds so that you can have those seeds to grow? Are these same companies helping the tribe out financially? Are they working with the nonprofits, the number of nonprofits that are out there to show them how to do these things? I don't know. so I just kind of have mixed feelings on that topic. I know it's important. I know it does bring recognition because these are Hopi seeds.

Are they really hope he sees after they've been taken away and basically handle like commodities? I don't know. It's just kind of a kind of a, I don't wanna sound too negative either, but I just have a different, I guess I just have a mixed opinion on that. The beauty of it is that these people can see what Hopi is, but did they really understand what Hopi is? I don't know. I have a new paper out now looking at...

that's called the Seed is Law that I did a joint paper with a Regents professor over here. That was also being my partner and we looked at the whole property, the whole thing of intellectual property and where seeds fit into the global thing and where they fit here in the United States. Here in the United States, we just don't have any rights because of different acts that have been agglomerated that keep us from exercising intellectual property. But one thing I am doing right now and I'll tell you about it is I'm looking at

I'm looking at trying to frame these indigenous seeds here in America as cultural patrimony under what they call a federal regulation called the Native American Grave Repatriation Act. But I'm also taking it a step further once I get tribal permission and then I'm going to start genetically sequencing these to create matches to show what the genetic sequence shows for these new hybrids that have been coming out for the last 50 years for the benefit for the the for the the concept of benefit sharing. So what happens if like if you see Bayer and they have like a short corn

drought resistant variety. Where do they get those genes from? Under United States law, they don't have to have that. Under international law, they have to say where that came from. And so it's just trying to work with what you have using the Western system through law and things like that to ⁓ try to create benefits for your own people. I never want to try to stop research. That's not my job. But my job is to create benefits so that these people who took years and years to raise these crops can share somehow.

I don't know what the sharing would entail, but it's just my idea of bringing recognition where it belongs. And that's what the women of our societies who took countless years to raise as to what they are right now.

Got a long answer.

Andrew Valenti (53:17)
No, I mean, that's great. And, I want to get more into it because, you know, as a grower myself, I have my own connection with the plants that I grow, regardless of where the seeds came from. but when I do see a Hopi seed or ancient variety of something, you know, be it from Italy or elsewhere, I have a ⁓ deeper reverence for it.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (53:37)
Yep.

You

should.

Andrew Valenti (53:41)
For me, as a grower, growing...

And the other thing is I understand that certain plants hold deeper meanings and deeper significance. the, another thing that was available was a Hopi tobacco. And I that that's a very powerful, powerful plant. And almost in a way where am I allowed to grow

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (53:49)
Yes, sir.

honestly don't see anything wrong with growing anything. mean, that's just the way it is. mean, Hopi's been trading for years. The problem is that if you're benefiting yourself, I think that's great. But if you're taking that product and making it into commodity and selling it for more than just yourself, think that to me, I have a problem with that. For an example would be a few years ago down here in Sedona, we had a

a gentleman who was got into the whole concept of the wipi or the sweat lodge ceremony. He would divide people in and what happened to that? He wound up overheating into like eight people died inside of the sacred place and it's because he wasn't supposed to be doing that. But he was doing it because he was taking that culture and he was selling it. And that's something I'm totally against.

Now if you raise your own seeds in your own place, that's fine. That's for you. That's for your benefit. You're healing yourself. But when you step out of the bounds and you start pretending this and that and benefiting from that, not knowing what the results are, not knowing who the person you're giving that to, then I have a problem with that because that's what they call, I forgot what the word of that is. I wouldn't call it exploitation, but.

I forgot the word it is, but it's just ⁓ something, but I just don't like that at all. It just irritates me a little bit. But when you're doing it for yourself, I don't have a problem with that. I mean, we've always traded seeds. ⁓ Seeds are great. I I have an initiative that I'm trying to get off the ground here in Tucson called One Seed, One Child, where I'll gift those children seeds to plant on their first day of class with a cup of soil and some water and let them plant on it. And that's all I want them to do. And that's the beauty of it.

But yeah, guess I do have a, appropriation I guess that's what it's called. But I just don't wanna get too involved in that. And I'm very hesitant on doing that even with my own stuff because that's not who I am. I was given these gifts by my grandfather and the people around me to share these gifts with people and that's what I do. But I'm also one to stand firm on my integrity and my beliefs that this is not for that. It's not to go out and make money.

I mean, even our own people, we frown upon people who actually even sell their corn because that's not what it's supposed to be. But I can understand why some of them do that because they need the money, because we become too dependent on things that we probably shouldn't have had in the first place. You have to ask yourself that though when you're doing these things, what am I doing this for? Am I doing it for...

myself and I want to learn that's fine but are you doing it to do this to make just make yourself some kind of shaman and I don't know I don't think you're doing that Andrew I think you're you got a good heart too I'm just here talking to you listening to you yeah you know your intentions are there so you knew ask me these questions I want to respond like that so that's how it is but you know I just I'll just leave it like that man you know

Andrew Valenti (56:52)
Yeah, that's what I mean. makes me think about, you know, the ayahuasca ceremonies and how popular those have become in Western culture. And yeah, it just seems like.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (57:00)
Yeah, mean, honestly think they're beautiful in some aspect, but you have to look at what the result's gonna be. I mean, you're tampering with something that in my mind could be dangerous, you know, and it could come back in a negative way. And sometimes, you know, even at Hopi, have some of our prophecies say that these things will eventually fade out.

You know, and then we're not supposed to try to renew these ceremonies anymore because that's their time. The times come to the end, you know, and sometime we'll and sometime we'll have a new beginning again. We'll enter a new world, you know, and things will start over, you know, and so you just have to look at what it is and we, know, that's the beauty of choice in free will as much negatively as I hit it earlier. You know, it's we do have that.

And so, but how we use it is a whole different world out there. It's a whole different ballgame. We can play Star Wars here and go on the dark side. I don't know, you know, it's just different.

Andrew Valenti (57:53)
Yeah, that's, that's a beautiful thought though, because, know, some things just have their time and it's hard for us to even accept that.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (58:01)
It's

hard for us to accept that, right? We can't, we can't overcome like, what if I don't have this? You know, what if you don't, you know, what are you gonna do? You know, I don't know. So I else is gonna happen. else it's interesting to see. Something else will fill it up, man. Trust me, we've got so many things to fill up our lives with right now. It's incredible.

Andrew Valenti (58:17)
So, yeah, so then in terms of growing these ancient seeds and for the sake of keeping these seeds in the world, because I find that to be so important. So it'll be more of the seed sharing, you know, if I were to grow these black seed sunflowers, the Hopi sunflowers at my home.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (58:34)
That's what

it's about, seed sharing. see, here's the, let me interrupt you real quick. Coming back to what you said, you know, we have all these seeds, we're growing all these seeds, it's very important to keep them going. And I think that's the key thing. It's very important to keep them going. Because what I see happening is I see all this material, this genetic material being taken, being stored for doomsday or whatever they're gonna use, using it to come up with new products to help fight climate change. And maybe there's nothing wrong with that, maybe there isn't, but.

My mind is if you keep those seeds in those seed banks for 100 years, 50 years, that when you bring them out and you do try to grow them, they're not gonna grow. They're not gonna do well because they've lost that capability to adapt. And so we have to remember that these seeds are just like us. If we house ourselves away and we don't come out and see the light for 100 years, what are we gonna do? You know, we don't know. And so that idea of keeping it growing, passing it on for community, I think is the most important thing and the most...

one of the best things that I've heard come from anybody. And that's important. We need to carry those things on forward because that's what we're supposed to do. They help us and we help them. And I'm talking to seeds here. And so it's just kind of, that's how I look at it.

Andrew Valenti (59:40)
Yeah. I mean, they are adapting and you look at human beings, we've adapted so much. Our bodies have changed, you know, we're a global species now. so, the seeds are adapting with us. So I think that's a great point to make. Really good point. But it also, you know, I'm curious though, it almost contradicts your 800 year old corn seed that you grew. that, you know, that survived in the elements?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (59:45)
Yes we have.

Andrew Valenti (1:00:06)
And it was able to continue growing. Is that because it's just so used to it knows that land?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (1:00:13)
No, because it has memory and I think, you know, let's top that, you know, because that's, that's, it was time for it to do that. You know, I mean, think about it. I feel like that was time for it to do that. You know, it's resting there all those years and it's time for it to do that, you know, and, and, and it did that. And only, you know why I did that? Because the, the, beauty that I provided it, the nurturing that I gave it, the love that I had for those, seeds, those little children.

It allowed it to do that. It's safe to come out now. Right? Look at it that way. It's safe to come out and see what we can do with each other. That's the beauty of it right there. Think about it. deep.

Andrew Valenti (1:00:46)
It is. is. You know, I practice a lot of singing to my, I like to speak and sing to all the seeds that I put in the ground. You should. When watering. Is there anything that, yeah, is there anything that you would be open to share that you do specifically or even a traditional thing that you do within your planting practice?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (1:00:56)
for.

No, I like to sing. I like to follow the steps of my grandfather, sing the different songs out there. Still learning how to sing some of these songs. And so I just do that. But I think for me, it's just going down the rows and just, you know, with my hand, just giving them high fives, touching the plants, you know, things like that.

Making sure that okay, especially even though after some of the monsoon race, some of them do fall down and just picking them up, giving them a big hug and, you know, tacking the soil around the base again so they can stand up straight. And, you know, it's just that, it's just nurturing. I think it's just, like I said, they're children to me. And so you got to make sure when they fall down, you pick them back up, you know, keep them going, you know, and, and then, and that's the way it is. And the beauty of it is when you do have that harvest, you bring that in, you peel back that husk or you harvest those beans or squash and.

It's amazing, and dry out the seeds and then you know, wow, look at this, you know, look how much it gave back to me because of all the care and nurturing that I had was taught to do with that. That's the beauty of it. And I think, you know, for people to have that connection, it's hard for people to fathom that, but it's still there. People still do that. You do that. There's other people that do that. I do that, you know, but to get to that level is very, it's very sometimes difficult because we get in our own way. And that's the problem. get in our own

Andrew Valenti (1:02:26)
What's one of your favorite food memories?

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (1:02:28)
honestly, like roasting corn, you know, I think, I think it's just, I built my own pit, you know, my roasting pit made out of stone in the ground, about seven feet deep. And it's just took me three or four months to build that, cut the stone and put it together with some guidance that I had. And then roasting that corn.

having everybody come around when we open up the pit to take the corn out and to take the husks off. it's just a community affair. People come, families come, and we share, take it apart. And then it's transported to the person's home who sponsored the event. And then it's hung up to dry for about month. And then it's packed away. And then three months later, you have corn on the table in the middle of winter. And like, where did this come from?

We dried it up, we just boil it back up and it goes back up to where it was when we put in the pit. It's preservation thing. So that's kind of my memory. That's one of my favorites. It's just that whole, not necessarily just the one detail, but the whole process of roasting corn, what it means and the value behind it. And that's pretty much my favorite memory, just roasting Hopi corn and just talking with each other, sharing things, telling stories, joking around.

It's the way it's supposed to be. It's a harvest for everybody, not just one person. And I think that's the beauty of it. So that's what brings me and drives me a lot too. So yeah, thanks for asking that.

Andrew Valenti (1:03:51)
I'm curious to ask more though. it's a seven foot deep pit. explain this to me a bit more. I'm trying to visualize what this looks like.

Michael Kotutwa Johnson (1:03:53)
Thanks. ⁓

Well, you have a... It's usually planted on the hills because you have what they call a nose or a vent. And so you have a pill that's... You have a pit that's lined with stone, thick sandstone. You have a beautiful base down there, which is another type of stone. And under that stone, you have sand and sometimes ashes. And then it's built up about 18 inches. And then these rocks are built around it. So it looks like a bell, a bell shaped on the inside. then the vent on the bottom. And then you just...

You just start your fire on top, it falls in there and then you keep adding wood to it. And then after a while, it turns black and then all of sudden the walls start getting whiter because it's getting hotter and hotter. And then so when that white line gets all the way to the top, then you throw all your, and the coals burn down some, you throw all your stocks in there, maybe five or six, and then you put all your corn in there, in the husk in there, you seal the top.

and then you seal the bottom where the vent is and you just let it sit in there all night. So you finally get that thing going about four, three, when you start throwing all that corn in there and then you bring it out early in the morning. know, usually somebody gives a big blessing and advice, not only the people, but all the spirits around to come eat, you know, let's eat, you know, that's what it's about. And you harvest it and you take turns going to the pit and pulling it out. It's a fun event. ⁓

It's just a good thing. that pit, when you preserve that corn that way, especially our sweet corn, because we don't irrigate, it's not waterlogged. The stuff we buy in the supermarket, it lasts a long time. When I was a boy, I mean, when I was 16 years old, I was cleaning out my grandfather's basement, I always seen some stocks, mean, some corn hanging in that, we'll throw it out and throw it out in the ground. And my aunt saw me do that, and she came over, got after me, she says, don't do that. She said, we got that 20 years ago. We'll just bring it over tonight, we'll eat it.

You know, and so she did that. She soaked in water for all morning and then she boiled it back up in the evening. We had it for supper. And I'm like, man, that's neat. That's real food security. You know, because of the methods that we use, right? It was preserved in that dry climate with very low, with hard any water, any manmade irrigation systems. And that's the beauty of it. It just preserves that way. And so it's kind of neat.

most of time I'm just trying to take care of my own community. I think that's one of things too, you know, I've had one of our native chefs, he was kind of, he's kind of sad and

He quit the native chef business because he says, you know, all these people are making, you know, they're, I'm making money here, but, but my own people are, are malnourished, you know? And he felt kind of bad about it. And I said, well, that's, that's, that's your choice. You know, I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing, but I can see, but it got heavy on him. You know, because all, cause you know, it's like when you get to the level like he was at where you're just making this cuisine for catering to rich people and you're, you're well known.

You tend to lose sight of what's really important in life. And for him, he still had that inkling in his heart that this is not what he really wants to do. He just did this. He got famous for it. And then he says, now I'm to go back to doing what I was doing because that's to help try to feed my own people. And I admire him for that. We all have our own decisions and things like that. But yours, my friend, yours, Andrew, is just, I don't know if you have a family, but.

If you do, you know, always take care of that family and just keep gardening, brother. Keep gardening. Do what you do. Because that's where the happiness is at. really