andrew (00:21)
Harry Holding is a garden designer based in Wales who believes a garden can be beautiful and fetus at the same time. He works with what are called edimentals, plants that earn their place for how they look and also happen to be food. A lot of us are already growing them without even knowing it, and the hostas and daylilies in our yards are a good place to start. We talk about what happens to a Chelsea flower show garden once the show is over,

And how his have gone on to become school gardens and soon a public park. We also get into the feeling of being connected to something bigger when we're out in nature, and how his time outside and his meditation practice Both lead him to the same stillness.

His book Eat Your Garden came out this spring with Chelsea Green Publishing. Harry sees food as a gateway to connecting with nature, and for those of us who don't feel that pull yet, he has two simple ways in. One is sitting quietly in the woods, and the other is growing a single pot of salad.

Harry Holding (01:18)
I think that there's definitely evidence of me gardening before I have any memories and there's photos of me as a tiny toddler just with a trowel in hand helping my grandparents out. I think one of the ones that really stuck out to me in terms of my memories was probably around the age of seven or eight and my parents had given me a section of the garden, just a little border that I could do what I wanted with and...

So was very fortunate to have that opportunity and that responsibility. And I think I just took the two influences from my two different grandparents where on one side my grandmother was all about color. has flowers, ornamental, it just had to be.

really beautiful to make its place in the garden whereas food for her was just a functional necessity that I think is a reaction to coming out of the war and having to grow your own food. I think she just saw it as a chore rather than a joyful thing. So and on the other side it was a complete opposite where my grandmother had turned the whole garden into

what I call an allotment, a kind of community growing plot where it was just an abundance of food. So I brought those two influences together and created this beautiful yet edible planting, which of course probably didn't look that good. It probably wasn't very edible, but certainly to

Andrew (02:43)
Hmm.

Harry Holding (02:46)
me it was a very formative experience.

Andrew (02:49)
So one was super focused on on color, so what did that really look like?

Harry Holding (02:55)
Well, I'm very fortunate because she's still there today at 93 years old in the same garden that she's been gardening for over sixty years. so it's a really old special place in my heart, that garden. for her, yeah, it really is colour and flowering perennials, just abundance of colours.

I try and help her out here and there and I sneak in some ornamental grasses and God forbid I suggested growing some vegetables but she just takes up space, she wants flowering plants and she's still battling. I was shocked to still see it there when I visited earlier in the year. A little patch that has got asparagus that just won't give up and it's a history of

Andrew (03:42)
Yeah.

Harry Holding (03:43)
the site used to be a farm.

they developed lots of housing on this old farm

and

Andrew (03:50)
Mm-hmm.

Harry Holding (03:51)
still battling with this variegated beds that are clearly a hangover from the site's history.

Andrew (03:57)
Amazing.

So one thing that I am so fascinated about your work that connects with me is you call it edimentals. and I've heard the term of, food scaping, it's it's edible landscaping essentially. So, growing a beautiful landscape, but everything that you can eat, or most everything.

So tell me about how you connected that into the work that you do.

Harry Holding (04:25)
Yeah, well think obviously having that strong foundation as a child, as I've just explained, think, just clearly sparked my interest. Then as I got older and was starting to garden more myself and doing it for a profession, I got my first allotment and it was a full-size allotment and I was just setting up my business at the time.

it was great, I loved it, but it's a lot of work and growing and your vegetables is something I do and I love, but it takes a huge amount of your time and energy and resources and you're always battling something and trying to work with nature, of course, but certainly early on I was sort trying to go the more traditional route and I think for me it just quickly became apparent that I could not sustain this with the style of growing I was doing and

all my other life demands. So I just started to experiment more with, know, perennial foods and also training and design. I was bringing in a lot of flowering plants and just started to get really interested in it. And I came across the term edementals, which was coined by a man called Stephen Barstow, who lives in Norway, but is from the UK. And he's thousands of different edementals in his garden in Norway. And it's just really inspirational. He keeps an amazing blog with loads of

really interesting fact about such unusual plants that you'd never think were edible, as well as loads of things

that people have grown in their gardens already like hostas and really just popular plants, which I think for me that was just quite eye-opening and it was something I started to integrate into my garden designs, into my own allotment and my own gardens and from there it led to me basically doing a show garden at the RHS Chelsea Flower Show.

which was my first one in 2023 with a charity called School Food Matters. we really

wanted to just demonstrate and show something really inspirational that really talked to the work that they did. And we created a plant and it was over 80 % edible, but it's actually on the front cover of my book, Eat Your Garden. And we dive into that garden in more detail throughout the book and people just absolutely loved it. It was...

really

well received and it went on to win the People's Choice Award at the show which was fantastic and it just showed to me that this is something we need to be putting out there in the world and really promoting as a wonderful way to bring food growing into people's lives.

Andrew (07:01)
Definitely. So that one, the people's choice. there's something about the Chelsea Flower Show that that baffles me a little bit. I think it's a super beautiful, super cool thing, but it's all these these temporary plant installations, right? So what happened to to that first one? Because you also did it this year and we can talk about that. but that first in twenty twenty three, what happened to the the exhibition once the the show was

Harry Holding (07:26)
Yeah,

Andrew (07:26)
done?

Harry Holding (07:28)
absolutely. Well, that is the thing which I'll say is, as you say, it's a mixed feelings about it being a temporary installation. But and historically, many years ago, they definitely would have and a lot of it ended up in waste. So a really shocking thing. But of course, these days, thankfully, people switched on and we would never do one unless it was just a stop.

along the journey to a much longer and more interesting life afterwards. So we created two school gardens from that one school show garden. And because they're so tightly packed and they're there to create something that is really evocative of a garden that is mature and has been there for many years. So you really pack it in and it's amazing that when you expand that art out, taking all those ideas and exploding those

extrapolating it, you can create something much bigger. the most significant of those two school gardens we created, one was in Liverpool and then the more significant one was in London. And we created a really large edible classroom, which was just incredible because the children now go out there, with three years old now and they use it in all different types of learning, whether we created this sort of curved round earth walls, which they use and they imagine they're in these Egyptian.

tombs in the kind of ancient sort of history and they go out and take herbs using culinary classes and they're just outside gardening and learning and growing and that that garden got quite a lot of press and media and it actually went on to the school receiving a sizable donation which allowed them to create a four acre basically urban farm and community garden growing space special educational

Andrew (09:18)
Wow.

Harry Holding (09:19)
need center so

really the ripple effect of something like Chelsea promoting ideas but also promoting organizations and charities and it's gone on to do such wonderful things for that charity school who matters and amazing to see that a few years on.

Andrew (09:35)
that's great. now tell me about the food in the school systems. Is is that being embraced more or did that school just go out of their way to decide that this was important for our students or is this being brought into curriculums now?

Harry Holding (09:51)
No,

mean, it's pretty bad in the UK. I think that, when I was growing up, there is always some aspect for most schools of being exposed to cooking in some way, but that invariably ends up being how to make cakes and brownies and maybe a pizza or something. And it's not the fundamentals and the foundations that we all need in life. So I think...

We've created a lot of school gardens and worked with a lot of schools through my practice. And our second Chelsea Flower Show garden, 2024, also created another school garden. So in that process, I'm really careful to work with schools that really hit the criteria. Firstly, do they have the space? Because that is the first challenge. You don't need loads of space, but having some space that meets the budget. Because if it's all tarmac,

and you don't have the budget to remove that and create soft landscaping. Of course you can do planters, but it's quite limited. Then that's the first thing. Well, they're all equal weighted realistically. The second is, know, do they have the appetite for this? Are they engaged? Because you can get all the wood in the world. They say, this would be great. But if they're not truly engaged, then ultimately these projects can fail. And they so often do fail. So I think...

For me that's absolutely critical and ultimately do they have some sort of evidence of engaging with outdoor learning in some form. And then finally, do they need it? Are they a deserving school? And of course every school is deserving but some more than others where a lot of the schools that we work with, the children live in high-rise flats where they don't have access to any green space at home. So I think those are really critical things to be looking at.

And then of course having teachers who are at school who are promoting it in the classroom because that school there, Alec Reed Academy in Ealing, they are now doing amazing things with food and getting children on that journey.

Andrew (12:02)
I think it's so important to get kids at the earliest age possible to be interested or at least have some understanding that food comes from the ground and you know what it looks like before it's in the grocery store or before it's just like on your plate, from whatever your parents made for you. I'm curious

What are some things that you feel is most important at the very beginning to teach people? what are some of the very first things that you teach any anybody of any age really, who's new to to growing plants and especially edible plants?

Harry Holding (12:39)
Yeah, I I think for me i inspiring children at a young age through edimentals is a great way because it creates a really immersive experience and children are so attuned to nature they just love it. most do at least. And by throwing them in that very natural experience and naturally an edimental way feels more like foraging in some senses. It's it's a bit less regimented.

bit more relaxed and looser and I think children just love the colours, the textures, the sense. how do you engage the senses? And of course, the palette and the flavour is is a huge way to do that. And I think if you can get people out there, get them smelling plants, get them touching them, then it just makes it all feel much less scary, more inviting for some children, less overwhelming for some, and for others it just it really affirms that that love that they

that they inherently have and then it's very simple. Just get them to taste a wild strawberry. get them to grow a potato. Just something very simple. for me, the first thing I grew was a potato. It's put it in the ground, give it a bit of love, dig up some potatoes. it's so simple. And then you're like, my God, wow. that that's really flicked a switch in my brain. This is where food comes from. And obviously you can do more way more

involved exciting things, but I think if you if you're tight on time and whatever it might be or space, you can do anything like simple like a potato and just a bag on a balcony and whatever it might be. So I think yeah just getting them out and engaging the senses and layering in heights into your planting so it becomes a submersive experience, different styles. And there was one plant that we put into that that Chelsea flower show garden with Schoolfield Matters in twenty twenty three that was called

Artemisia Coca-Cola and Apley, the the varieties name of Coca-Cola, it smells like, the much loved drink. And not that I want to be promoting that drink, but but it it just engages children and and they all loved it. It's not actually edible, but but just the smell of it is is something that that's such a emotional sensory experience. So little tricks

like that

Andrew (15:00)
Yeah.

Harry Holding (15:00)
can be really great.

Andrew (15:01)
Huh. I I love the potato because it's truly one of the most magical. It's the most basic, simple vegetable, but one of the most magical. Especially to somebody who's n would never know how a potato is grown. you take a potato, put it in the ground, and it gives you more potatoes. Yeah. Yeah.

Harry Holding (15:22)
Just simple, does the job. Yeah. And

and also, s like this not doesn't go for children, this goes for everyone. So many people are scared about growing food. And, it's that sense of maybe you tried something and didn't work and there's loads of rules online. You get rules from T V presenters and this is how you do things and books and all this. It's actually just give things a go. Have a have fun with it. Things fail, things succeed. And that's why potatoes are great because

Yeah, you're often gonna have that success and build confidence and unless you're sadly plagued with blight and, your community garden plot or whatever, but

Andrew (16:02)
Yeah.

Harry Holding (16:02)
you most of the time you'll be fine.

Andrew (16:05)
Yeah. And that happens. my earliest memory is I was probably four or five years old pulling a carrot out of the ground and just being blown away. whoa. I love carrots. This is where they come from? Yeah. Yeah.

Harry Holding (16:14)
Yeah. Yeah. And it tastes so good. Yeah. And compared

to buying a carrot that tastes like nothing anymore

Andrew (16:23)
Yeah.

Harry Holding (16:24)
in the UK and v a carrot that you've grown yourself freshly picked, it's just it's not even it's hard it's it's not impossible to compare, it's hard to imagine they're same food.

Andrew (16:35)
Yeah. So with the the edimental, the the edible landscaping that you do, it it lends itself to more of a regenerative agriculture focus, right? Because you're not just you're you're planting perennials.

Harry Holding (16:50)
Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that,

I really try and touch on through the book.

Andrew (16:56)
Mm-hmm. And you mentioned Charles Dowding in there, yeah.

Harry Holding (17:00)
Yeah, yeah. So Charles is a a good friend. He's yeah, see f fantastic grower and such an inspiration for me. And I think it was important for me could to bring someone who does, what I would say is more traditional annual vegetable growing, albeit in a no dig system and and he always pushes the boundaries of course. But, for me it's not about having one approach or another. These these ideas should be able to come together and you should be able to do lots of different styles of growing.

And that creates a more resilient system. And also bringing edimentals into traditional food systems and annual vegetable growing is something he does and it's great because they often are, fantastic for pollinators, less time and energy input, less watering, can really just help to fill those hunger gap periods as well. And so Charles was great, but also look into wider what I'd say regenerative movements, whether they're

scale of agriculture or not, but certainly in terms of growing, food forests, larger agroforestry systems. These are all things that that that use admentals and edible meadows, it's a wonderful concept, at at a larger scale and also going over to the States and working with Ben Falk, the permaculturalist and how permaculture brings all these ideas together, as well as Jerome Ossentowski from

the Central Rocky Mountain Permaculture Institute, which again does amazing work growing, food and food forests at really challenging conditions. So yeah, looking around, the world, primarily the UK and US and seeing how these sorts of plants are used in in regenerative systems.

Andrew (18:46)
What would be found in an edible meadow?

Harry Holding (18:50)
I think, you can go down a more stylized route to such and something that's quite fun that's going to emerge from it like a a fennel, for example, or so even a very staturesque when designing a plant to try to use punctuation points, these more structural emergent plants. Something like an artichoke is just incredibly sculptural. So I might have a few of them just dotting their way through.

Then I love waves of things like Yarrows. Yeah, I love using them for tea, incredibly medicinal. Rebecca Lanciata, which is a wonderful Rebecca in from North America that's that's eaten by indigenous communities and again brings a lovely staturesque form to it. Something like King's Spear, which is asphodoline lutea. I see it growing, not typically in a a kind of wetter meadow

UK situation, but in a dry scenario across hillside and Greece, these wonderful

yellow spikes. As they come up, the stems are delicious. You just chop them, use them a bit like asparagus. You don't eat the leaves, but the the the beautiful yellow flowers for a garnish, really zingy. And then the roots have this nutty flavour. And they're a prized food in ancient Greek times and it's just something

that, falls out of favour and

Loads of things greater pig nuts, and beautiful umbals, Korean asters. So it really is endless. And I think obviously there's one way to go about it, which is to do a more designed meadow, which we do a lot in in our plantings where it's very much planting out plants and creating a meadow like a aesthetic. but it is very much designed. Or you can buy a

wildflower meadow or a prairie seed mix and then just inject some edimentals into that. So some of them may already have their own edible or medicinal qualities. do your research, but then you could input some some of your favourites into that and then broadcast it over a larger area and then get, a more true meadow like effect. so yeah, those are two fun ways. And yeah, a friend of mine, Sid Sid Hill

Who's a wonderful, ecological designer and and artists over here, he's really been champion that this this approach. And he'll even when s casting seed for an edible meadow will, input a a cat catch crop of some radishes or something. So you're just getting that instant hit in year one as everything's just starting to get going, and then

in year two, three, that's all just being overtaken by the longest standing perennial. So you can make it like a really highly productive but completely low input system.

Andrew (21:46)
Hm. Now this might be focused to a very small audience, but I'm curious to ask it anyways. So so people who want to start a meadow and that have the land or, I've even heard some questions from farmers who want to just rewild essentially a big patch of land. one of the main pressures is is weeds, right? So if you're starting from

ground zero, would you mow and till the land before you planted a meadow or would you, how would you go about planting a meadow? Because it can be really overwhelming.

Harry Holding (22:20)
Yeah. Yeah, it's really challenging. I think at garden scale you're often if you're building a garden you're often starting from bare ground. So that is a a great opportunity and scenario. and obviously of course not leaving that that ground exposed for for very long. So sowing seed direct, perhaps planting a few more more structural elements as plug plants, or just helping some of those more sensitive species get along. I think it's scale.

I've got a plot of land here in Wales, where I live, on in Hay and Y, and an eight and a half acre plot where we're doing a lot of meadow creation and restoration and at at scale it it's it's a challenge because ultimately for a meadow to be a meadow in the UK, our principle of what a meadow is, versus something like a prairie in in the US I guess is that it is a managed landscape. So you're cutting and removing material and

feeding hay to your livestock typically, and then your meadow through that cutting and removing process, you're just depleting nutrients from it. And that nutrient depletion means that the wildflowers get a chance because the grasses start to get knocked back. And the grasses are always going to be the dominant factor here. So the wildflowers start to get an opportunity to come through and our wildflowers in the UK and Europe generally are more delicate. So they need that helping hand. So

Two two things two ways really in short is either harrow it, so you've got an existing pasture, harrow it, really knock it back, so cut it back, really just keep whacking it back. You don't need to fully till it, but just really beat it down and then oversow that. So you just really open up lots of gaps and then just sew in the wildflower just the the wildflowers, no grasses. Or if you don't want to be so extreme and you wanna

d disturb the soil less, then just cut, cut, cut, and cut it quite hard. and sow yellow rattle, which is called the meadow maker, and it's a parasitic

wildflower which will it's parasitic to grasses. So it starts to knock them back and then it does that job of opening things up a little bit and allowing wildflowers to come through and then through your cutting regime and over sowing.

You're just going to use a lot more seed because a lot of it will just get wasted 'cause it can't hit that bare bare earth. So you just continually

oversow with yellow rattle and wildflower meadow mixes and it will eventually become more fluorif fliliferous.

Andrew (24:57)
Mm, okay. The Meadowmaker. I like that. So but that won't out compete the other plants that you're putting in?

Harry Holding (25:05)
It's parasitic to grasses. I think it may have i I from top of my head it may have some element of parasitic to a broader range of plants, but it it very much is the focus on grasses. So it's it it can have cyc it tends to go in cycles where it ends up having a bit of a boom and you have quite a lot of it and then it disappears back a bit. But generally you you wanna keep a a decent population of it going throughout a meadow. so yeah, I think you can look up

density rates to be sewing at online and there'll be all that information.

Andrew (25:39)
when you've got a job and you've been asked to design, a a meadowscape, a a landscape, a yard, when you're getting your information, I'm sure that you have a lot of direction from your clients, but also how much are you looking to nature, how much are you grabbing from your education, and what inspires you to build site-specific.

Yeah.

Harry Holding (26:05)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think as you s quite rightly say the site specific is the key and I think first after you've taken that client brief and working with your clients is really understanding the landscape, what what is there, not just in that immediate vicinity, but in in the wider area, the that contextual information, just being really inspired by that and and so many places have such a deep, rich history and it's just trying to draw some inspiration from that.

and also culturally, w what is that cultural aspect and particularly important when we're working on on more public realm work where, that it that is very much look into that community and and and engaging with that community to bring them into that conversation. So I think it's also landscapes looking at maybe what's what's missing. a lot of our landscapes are quite deluded and and need some some help to to boost them along and and help help wildlife.

And and invariably create a more beautiful and and all encompassing space for our clients in the process. So yeah, I th I think that a a lot of a lot of UK now we're perhaps in areas where it's a very heavily farmed landscape. So, in places maybe we're missing hedgerows or trees, maybe old, dry stone walls and things have been historically part of that, that area might have been removed. Maybe water and wetlands areas might have been drained.

so thinking about those different typologies, different habitats and ecosystems that that may well have been there. And then culturally things like, coppice woodlands. That that's most UK woodlands would have been coppice and managed. very few of them were, if any really were truly wild. So, that's something that we've we've really lost and is opportunity to bring back these ecosystems and get outputs from them, and they're incredibly important for for

biodiversity in the UK. There's some of the a coppice woodland is some of the most biodiverse landscapes in the UK. and we're we're losing them and and culturally as well, it's something that is a really beautiful thing to restore. So yeah, I I think there's there's so many different ways that that we think about it. But it very much is important to be led by that client brief because you need to be drawing out your clients into the landscape as well and bringing their their personality and

And and h helping to realise their dreams.

Andrew (29:07)
Now do people come to you because they want the edible element or do you try to just fit how much of that do you try to fit into a plan even if it's not part of the plan?

Harry Holding (29:20)
Yeah, I think it's probably more the latter to be honest. I think that, some some people know it's a thing we do and are really into that. a f f ha a few people approach us specifically for that. but most of the time, people like our work, whether they know it's got edible plants in it or not. And and I always started by sneaking some in, even if people weren't that interested and and it's great to see how it it changed the way that they engage with their gardens and landscapes and

And now it's like it's always something I have that conversation about. And really for me the edimental idea was also born out the fact that, particularly in urban areas, people feel that they don't want to give up space for for food growing because, that they're tight on space and and it it should be given over to the ornamental side of things is is the kind of how they see it. So it was something that I really felt was a great way to inject a bit of that in. But

But yeah, I think it's I think it's great to be present in these conversations. and I certainly think there's there's more interest in food growing in the UK in recent years because certainly I think in my grandparents and great grandparents' generation, everybody grew. you had to because of the war. You you quite literally had to grow food. So there was there was rations and I think there's probably a bit of a

we're moving away from that and we in this enter this world of abundance and then I think, with things like the pandemic, people just realise that food systems aren't secure and nature is a w it's a food is an amazing way to to connect with nature. So it's a gateway to nature connection. So I think it just hooked a lot of people, which is great. but yeah, there's certainly loads more people out there who who could be inspired for sure.

Andrew (31:14)
Yeah. And it it's funny with your grandmother's garden how she's battling the the food that's wanting to come up. But that just that's proof of the the resilience of some things and if that food's gonna be there. asparagus is one of those great plants where you plant it and it'll be there for twenty plus years. And you can you can try to fight it. It'll keep coming back. It's like okay, you c just harvest

Harry Holding (31:32)
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Which is

Andrew (31:37)
it and eat it.

Harry Holding (31:39)
Yeah, exactly. But no, she doesn't listen to me on that one, so I've tried. but e each to their own. At some point you've got to yeah, let people do what they wanna do 'cause we all have we all have different passions, don't we? But but yeah, I think I think we'd all be better off having a bit of food in our guns at least.

Andrew (32:01)
And the funny thing about that too is I bet that her asparagus in particular is even I would I would argue that it would have more nutritional value because it's being stressed by her trying to to cut it out. when wild plants wild plants have a bit more of this nutritional value than these tended to cared for plants. So how does that play into

the nutritional value of the plants that you're you're growing and planting. talk a bit about that,

Harry Holding (32:29)
Yeah.

Andrew (32:29)
the health the health aspect.

Harry Holding (32:31)
a hundred percent and that's that's something I I cover a a bit in a book because it's we're all becoming much more attuned to this idea of a gut microbiome and diversity is is king and wild foods are packed full of polyphenols. The diversity that you d just don't get at the supermarket, you don't get in our day to day lives. So a wonderful way to bring that in.

And yeah, I think I think for me it also is a way to grow plants in stressful conditions and in stressful environments. And we're living through a world where the climate is creating stressful conditions everywhere. So if we can't continue to grow food and adapt our food growing with plants that can just crack on with very little input.

then we're gonna be really struggling to give that level of input to to everything we're used to growing, that is that does need more money coddling. So in my garden in in in Bristol that I've I've we're just left about six weeks ago, but I was there for about five years creating a garden, which is a tiny, tiny little space, but it backed onto this nature reserve which was beautiful and went out onto different community farms and everything. But

In my tiny little space, I did wanted to experiment with a zero waste garden. So all the waste from the garden, waste from the building works we were doing, I crushed down. So stone and brick and all these different elements, crushed down and underneath all the concrete slabs that were there was basically just a sandy, dry, dead topsoil. So I thought, right, well I'll mound a bit of that in a few areas.

And then all that crushed material I just layered across the garden and used that as a substrate instead. And I grew things like sea buckthorn, which was amazing and just cracking on with it, Turkish rocket, garlic crest, Nepita, lots of Yarrows again, Valerian, all these fun elementals, just trying to cast my mind back now, and Chusa, Zoria.

just loads of different elementals of course, an array of different herbs and y more typical elementals like that. and they just cracked on. once it got them established, they were able to take this really lean, mean, stressed environment. And a lot of flowering plants, meadows, they they want it lean and mean. a lot of flowering plants do better. They they perform better, they grow less big, they grow more like they would in the w in the wild.

And they could flower, for for a decent amount of time and look more natural. So yeah, I think it's just a wonderful way to be able to experiment as well, with these kind of systems. Amazing people like Peter Korn, over in Sweden and John Little in in the UK really pushing the boundaries of with growing in in substrates that are not healthy, nutritious soils. They're sand and rubble and waste from

building roads and whatever it might be, kitchen sinks, literally.

so yeah. I think it's just good to experiment.

Andrew (36:01)
Yeah, you can go into any city and see some plant pushing through the cracks of anywhere. It's pretty amazing the what

Harry Holding (36:09)
Absolutely.

Andrew (36:10)
what plants are what they want to do. They just want to grow. So

Harry Holding (36:14)
Yeah. They will find a way.

Andrew (36:16)
well that reminds me of what you did with the flower show this year. So you worked with a couple different people at the Chelsea Flower Show and

You won a prestigious award this year. Congratulations. Yeah,

Harry Holding (36:30)
The Environmental Innovation Award.

Andrew (36:33)
awesome. Congratulations. And now

Harry Holding (36:35)
So basically

for being the most sustainable garden there, which is fantastic.

Andrew (36:39)
Bravo, yeah. So you guys did some installations with muscle shells talk a little bit about some of the the materials that you used in the flower show.

Harry Holding (36:51)
Yeah, well well also that's ties into our our our conversation earlier about the the idea on well what inspires you from a space and a place and I think looking to that bioregional area and what is there naturally. Is there an abundance of a material, a natural resource, whether that's local stone or in in this case at Chelsea as you allude to, shells, or even, a waste product. So

We're working with the Eden Project, which is an amazing charity in in the UK, just created this unfathomable project twenty five years ago where they took the a a old, disused China clay pit. So basically a quarry, a mine, and then turned it into put these incredible biomes. I think at the time they were the largest glass house greenhouse structures in the world, and then just grew a rainforest and grew a Mediterranean climate and

did loads of food growing and just built soil and anyway, that story, so they're creating a new Eden project up in Morkham in the northwest coast of the UK, which we're part of the design team for and Morkham's famous for its history of growing and producing mussels and cockles. So we thought, right, well let's use that as a waste resource 'cause these shells just get thrown and turn it into a super low carbon concrete, which we called clamcrete, and basically took

waste mixed it with G G B S, which is another waste from the steel industry. and in that basically means you can really reduce the amount of cement you have. We then put, a tiny percentage of cement, just a few percent of cement in there. Some crushed brick dust, so again another waste from rubble. and effectively did loads of amazing things, pushing the boundaries with it.

putting natural pigments in it, turn it into this incredible sculptural piece that took all of the landscapes from Workham working with an artist Finn Bar Ward, all these direct castings of the landscapes and from the more coastal to the more inland scenes and created a twenty meter long and a ten meter long sculptural wall out of them. cladding pieces for the the sort of structure of the leg that we the leg structure that we created in the heart of the garden and the floating terrace and

Yeah, just really push the boundaries and great fun, I think, for me. That's wonderful thing about RHS Chelsea Flower Show is that you can really just push the limits on what design is and and what materials can be and you just kinda get the ability to just, break the moulds and do something interesting.

Andrew (39:36)
So those the the clam crate, is that something that people are experimenting with with structural buildings or is it more sculptural?

Harry Holding (39:47)
absolutely it's it's structural as well. it just depends on the level of the more structural it needs to be, the more cement you would need to have in there. So the h higher the carbon footprint. But with the smaller amount of cement we had in there this year, we got over eighty percent reductions in carbon than typical concrete. So, it really is significant. and it's using waste.

as a primary material and local stone again not transporting it far. So yeah, you can go as structural as you like, really. it it just means more cement.

Andrew (40:30)
where does this exist now? Does it live does it live on somewhere else?

Harry Holding (40:35)
It's currently being stored in a on a farm just outside Morecambe. So it got transported up there just after the show. The plants went to a nursery in Morecombe and all of the materials went to this farm. And we're just about to start on site at the New Eden Project Morecombe and it's basically becoming a 1.6 acre community garden and a arrival garden in the public realm, so effectively a public park.

for the new Eden project and that's going to open a whole year ahead of the the Eden opening, the rest of the site opening, and it's just going to be there for the local community to use and for people to come and engage with and visit. So it's expanded by thirty times the size of our Chelsea Flower Show garden. and all those ideas have been extrapolated into this much more all encompassing and large space right on the beach. So we had a lot of coastal inspired planting.

and coastal edibles as well. So things like I've referenced already, like the sea butthorn or the gumi berry, which is Eliagnus, multiflora, umbilata, with different types of hawthorns with edible berries, Cartagus, edible coastal style meadows with I don't know, anchusas and chives and different sort of herbs running through it.

a sphodline again, that that wonderful king spear, the ancient Greek that I told you about. Sea kale is one of our favourite forage plants here in the UK. It nearly got foraged to extinction with the with the Victorian in Victorian times. It just

Andrew (42:16)
really?

Harry Holding (42:18)
grows on on the coast out of shingle and it's just delicious, absolutely delicious. And rock samphire, loads of fun things, as well as one of my favourite trees called Zisyphus Jujuba, which is the Chinese date.

And it's just this incredible plant that can grow in such drought conditions and a wide range of soil conditions and produces a date like fruit at the end of the

year with almost or the end of the season with almost no input at all. And it's delicious. Very much gives reminiscent of a date.

Andrew (42:51)
Zisyphus

Jujuba. That's a fun name too.

Harry Holding (42:53)
Jujuba, yeah. Is that the the Chin Chinese day. Yeah, it's a good one.

Andrew (42:58)
And it grows well in the in the UK, yeah?

Harry Holding (43:01)
Yeah, it it it I don't think it would like our winter wet clay soils. I haven't experimented, but that's the sense I get. I think if you've got free draining, then it's very adaptable, very drought tolerant once established, can take some wet if it doesn't sit wet. But we do have very wet winters now with with climate change. And places like London are famous for having London clay, which is, heavy. So

I think just being mindful of that, it it's it's a pretty adaptable plant. A beautiful butt to it as well.

Andrew (43:38)
And you talk about sea kale too. that's something that kinda sparked a lot for you in a at a young age. And I also hear you talk a lot about sea buckthorn, which I'm hearing a lot more of. And I wanna just talk about sea buckthorn for a minute because I want more people to be aware of it and to start demanding it, demanding more products from it because

Harry Holding (43:58)
yeah.

Andrew (43:59)
the amount of vitamin C it has and the ease at which it grows, so

Give

us a give me a little Seabuckthorn elevator pitch.

Harry Holding (44:09)
Yeah, yeah. it's interesting to say, like you say, n hugely nutritious. it grows with masses yeah, masses of ease. But it's just bizarre that it's not more widely used. I think, as you say, it is becoming more popular and when I was out in the States writing my book, working with different people like Ben Falk, Jerome Santowski and also Food Way, the Edible Public Park in New York, it was very much on people's agenda, which is great.

And Ben was growing loads of it and making products from it. And I think it's called is it called sunberry or sun sea berry, maybe I think in the States, rather than sea buckthorn.

yeah, so Hippophae rahamnoides and it's you need a male and female, probably one male for every seven females, roughly. and what I think's wonderful is that

It grows naturally in the southeast coast of the UK, across Europe, various places. It naturally wants to grow into more of a thicket, so it's great as a hedgerow, windbreak. it's spiky and beautiful foliage, the most incredible orange berries on it. And I I love eating them raw straight off the the the branch as a little dessert when I'm sitting out in my garden and the end of summer and

as a dessert after lunch or something like that. some people might find that quite tart, so it's great to mix it and make things out of it, whether that's various different skincare products people are even making or or drinks and things like that, when it's smoothies. But what I really love about it is it's incredibly sculptural when you when you prune it into a multi-stem shape. So it has clear stems up to, head height or chest height.

that you can look through and then you've got the canopy up above. It's a very sculptural plant. And that's how we use it as a multi stem punctuation. And occasionally as in hedging and things like that as well. so yeah, I I I honestly think it's got so many uses and it's incredibly drought tolerant and very adaptable really. it doesn't tend to like its its roots being disturbed, is what I find. So

that's something to be slightly mindful of and it can sucker a fair bit. I haven't had huge problems with that, but it but it can do so and the way people harvest it a lot is just literally snip a branch off 'cause it's so quick growing. Just snip the branches off that are laden with these berries. Put them in the freezer. once they've frozen down a bit, then literally put that in a Hessian bag and just bang it on a counter.

And then the berries will fall off. You can compost the the branch and then you got a bag of berries and you don't have to, worry about pricking yourself on the the spines and things like that. So actually very, very easy to harvest in many ways.

Andrew (47:16)
Hm. that sounds good for regenerative agriculture as well. If the roots are disturbed,

Harry Holding (47:22)
yeah.

Andrew (47:23)
there's no need to go digging around.

Harry Holding (47:25)
exactly. And use it as in agroforestry as as alleys between crops or whatever, because it if you're mowing down the edges of those alleys, for example, anyway, then you you'll stop its natural suckering and it doesn't sucker too far to be honest. Anyway, but and then it doesn't grow too tall, so it's not creating vast amounts of shade and because it thickets it gives you a really good windbreak. Yeah, so a great plant all round.

Andrew (47:53)
with agroforestry, because you've learned from permaculture and food forests, agroforestry. is there anything that you've gathered in all of your your learnings, your education that you have just completely scrapped and said, that's that's the way it's been taught, but doesn't feel w how we should be doing it anymore. Because I think that there's a lot being taught still that

maybe we shouldn't be talking about anymore.

Harry Holding (48:21)
Yeah, there's so many things. I guess in in on the purely ornamental side it's this it's this idea that everything wants a well drained, moist, loam soil. And you look at the Royal Horticultural Society, the RHS in the UK are amazing. I absolute big advocate for them, but their their website generally does recommend these perfect gold a lot conditions a lot. And actually, we talk about that lean and mean.

and really pushing plants in different ways. I think in terms of food systems for me I think it's diversity, that idea that that growing a monoculture gives you the most amount of yield, I just think is wrong. I think that, certainly at scale and using vast machinery and it it can diversity becomes challenging. not impossible, but certainly challenging.

And I think that actually the biggest yield comes from smaller scale and diverse systems. And, I think that traditional vegetables are amazing, but don't even grow those in polycultures. And that's something that's super sorry, in in monocultures, grow them in polycultures. And that's something super inspiring to me. People like Charles Dowering, who just is a master of very simple polycultures, nothing complicated. But even just growing a couple of crops together and he's just released a book on

that called Grow Together, which is fantastic

'cause I was trying to write them all down as I was going around with him at Homemakers, but invariably, don't catch them all. And so that's been that's been really great to immortalize in a book. But also people like Josh Sparks, you can check him out on Instagram. he does what he head grow at at Birch Farm. They're doing some really experimental things there. A lot of centropic agroforestry, amazing

polycultures. they partner with a a sister

hub that is part of this collective who are all taking on the challenge to to use wild and foraged and perennial foods in their recipes and and growing and and in the kitchen so a really great example of that and he's doing some really inspirational work so yeah I think whatever you do just bring diversity in it's a it's a myth that that monoculture is the way forward and and also just looking to how

these more wild plants might want to grow in nature and and how plant communities go 'cause the more above ground diversity you have, the more below ground diversity you have. And if you have complex root morphologies, then ultimately you're tapping into all of the nutrients, all the different environmental niches that exist across that soil profile and and above ground of course. And it means you you have a way lower input system because weeds are far less likely to get into that.

Because all the environmental niches or many of them are taken up. and you're more likely you have soil cover, so you're less likely to to dry out, you're building more carbon, increasing the organic matter content. the it the the list just goes on and on and on of the benefits. So, fundamentally, if you look to nature and see that process of succession from bare soil to woodland and say, Well, how do I align my traditional vegetable

system or whatever it might be, a bit closer to nature. And even at scale, if you're growing, more like classic large scale crops at scale with more machinery, well quite simply, how do you bring some trees into that? Because that is a line in it closer to a natural system that would have shrubby and then tree sis material in it. So

No matter what l scale you're doing, I think it's just thinking to align yourself and bring in that diversity.

Andrew (52:19)
Yeah,

definitely. with plant nurseries, that feels to be one of the areas that I don't hear discussed often when it comes to yes, a nursery can can grow a lot of diversity, but it's also almost in more of a mono

mentality, monocrop mentality. So is there a way to grow a natural environment and call it a nursery? can you just plant a landscape and have that be your nursery?

Harry Holding (52:52)
That's a really cool idea. I think it's a really cool idea. I've I've dabbled a little bit working in a nursery trade when I was when I was younger and it's it's really, really a challenging business, as is farming. So, naturally you get p pushed to scale and also to, sadly just growing a such a limited palette. Of course, there's a lot of diversity in the nursery industry, but compared to the amount of plants that are out there

know, it's the same handful of, ornamental trees being sold because they're just so popular at massive scale and it it's so I think we all have a duty to be pushing nurseries to to grow more diversity and asking for more unusual things from your local nurseries, 'cause if enough people ask, then it it helps to push it along and certainly not their fault because these people get into it 'cause they love plants and they're plantsmen or women.

And but it you just get driven by that that kind of commercial incentive. So but yeah, I think if you could or at least if you could have, areas within nurseries that were more biodiverse and had, showcase there's some amazing nurseries in in the UK that do push the boundaries where they have planted areas in their nurseries that are just showcasing firstly what they can do and what they can grow, but then that brings the biodiversity, which then helps

with the pests and helps with all the things that you have in your my more commercial production area. So I think that principle is great. And sadly, the bigger the nurture you get, people start to forget about that that little bit of magic that you could create.

Andrew (54:36)
And I just look at the waste, the plastic use, all the all the pots, all the the plastic really. Yeah.

Harry Holding (54:40)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It really is.

And the simple thing in the UK, which I don't know how it is in the US, but U UK machinery for recycling doesn't recognise black plastic. So quite simply by use sourcing from nurseries that that supply gold or or blue are the typical colours now, a lot of silver pots.

then they can be recycled. And of course, reuse them yourself. Growing them, use them for growing on your own ornamental or or edimentals or annuals or whatever. But or try and return them to s nurseries, but a lot of them don't like doing that anymore. So but yeah, a simple technological thing like that, which, or some nurseries now put, these these these these fluorescent strips around the black plastic which helps to,

for these machines to understand them, but yeah, it's just a one of those sad, sad things.

Andrew (55:44)
yeah that feels like returning to that disconnection from nature topic. even when we're focused on growing and and reconnecting, there's all it feels like there's always gonna be this little element that okay, here's a part that we need to rethink or just be aware of and how can we minimize.

is there a spiritual element to your connection with gardening and growing and when it comes to the soil, when it comes to the plants? I don't like to use the word spiritual, but I think it's it's more of is does it feel like there's something bigger?

more going on when you're when you're working outside the nature.

Harry Holding (56:25)
Yeah, massively for me. I think without I guess, someone who's not religious in a traditional sense, it's really it's nature for me that that that gives you that kind of connection with what feels like a a higher being of sorts. It's it's that resonance. And I think that that comes through in in in landscapes or it doesn't come through in really degraded spaces. so I think if we can,

be creating places that that inspire that, that are full of abundance and atmosphere and and really that spiritual sense of connection to to nature that you get from being in really beautiful, wild or semi wild places. And I think that for me is just a the the absolute top goal of what we're trying to achieve. And I think for me I'm I'm I'm a a practitioner of Vipasana meditation and and

Shivananda yoga and things and and ultimately that that is all about trying to bring yourself into into that present moment, that stillness and and be in connection with yourself and that divine quality of stillness that that is in within all of us. And I think that nature is is the sort of shortcut to that and and very and goes hand in hand with these sort of practices as well. So yeah, I think it all means something

slightly different to everyone, doesn't it? But but I think that feeling is probably probably the same for everyone.

Andrew (58:02)
And it feels like that comes through in your work too, because you go for more naturalistic design rather than I like to see it as almost controlled chaos because

Harry Holding (58:14)
Yeah.

Andrew (58:16)
that's the naturalistic way it's like it looks like it's just wild nature, but it is all this very thoughtfully placed. So does that come into your when you're designing and when you're

when you're learning about the plants, because it's it's a lifelong journey of of education. you're always gonna be learning from plants. So how does that

Harry Holding (58:34)
yeah. Yeah.

Andrew (58:37)
that feed into when you're designing something?

Harry Holding (58:40)
Yeah. Well I think it's it it's the fundamental first step of whether it's an area of a landscape or or an entire garden, it's like well what do we want to evoke here? Do we want to evoke more of a woodland, wooden edge type of environment or more of a meadow, prairie style environment, or s anything in between. So I think for me that's a starting point because

if you can evoke something that well that is truly reminiscent of a natural landscape, then it fosters that connection. It is very much designed, very considered, managed, very much a managed landscape and and garden, but but in a way, and this might sound slightly sacrilegious, but it's nature but with the dial turned up, it's an enhanced, ramped up form of nature. And I'm not trying to say it's better than, it's just you're distilling

that ecosystem and that environment and then bringing it down into this sort of form which is just really, really well I say dialed up, but if it's you've got a sense of colour over here, you've got a lot of colour over here. Or, playing with the layers and the structure of a woodland, you can really have fun and and dial that up again. So I think for me it's it's always been inspired by respectful of looking to

how plant communities grow and f come together and then seeing how we can bring the artistic flair to that because in the UK, right now our most of our native wildflowers are exhausted. They've they're spent there particularly in a dry year like this year. They do their thing in our in our spring, early summer, look absolutely stunning. And then late summer, we haven't got much interest. You look to prairies in North America and as

masses of colour later in that s late summer, early autumn. So bring some of those plants over, mix them in with our our native earlier flowering species, and you can just get flowering all through the season, really ramped up. So, it's that kind of approach that I think that that you get the benefits of horticulture over just pure natural ecosystems.

Andrew (1:01:02)
Yeah. Now, if you had some advice for and I hope I have some listeners who are these people. and this is so the reason I made this podcast is because I want to create as many pathways back to nature for any for anybody to find that connection that we're talking about, right? I I do understand that there are some nature averse people,

I've I've met some people who are just like, Yeah, I I just don't need to go outside. I just I have no interest in plants. do you have any advice for them or anything that you would say to those kind of people to to open that door gently for them or that you can tell other people like me to tell other people like that?

Harry Holding (1:01:48)
I think probably two pieces. One would be maybe a little bit more extreme. to some to some.

Andrew (1:01:54)
Let's get it.

Harry Holding (1:01:56)
But for me, go into the most, evocative woodland that you can that's close to you. And to some that sadly might not be very close. But in the UK we've got pockets of ancient woodland, or just semi ancient or semi wild spaces.

and just sit in silence for five, ten, twenty, thirty minutes and open your eyes, close your eyes, maybe, open your eyes again and just feel that place. Just really feel it. And I think that that connection is invariably gonna be a little bit sparked by that experience. And you just tune in and it's a silence and I love going for hikes and walks with with friends and my wife and but

a lot of time we're chitting and chatting away and it's great we're in nature, but I'm not noticing nearly as much. I'm just being quiet, being alone. You just hear the birds, you hear the sound, you feel it. And, particularly shut your eyes when you open the everything's more vivid, it's more alive, and you've really attuned the senses. So I think for anyone who's, a little bit more daring just to go for it. otherwise I think, as we've touched on throughout this, food

is the most incredible gateway to nature connection. So, it doesn't have to be much, but just get a pot or a planter if you've got a little concrete courtyard for your back garden or whatever it might be. Grow some salad. And even if you just have one salad from that pot or planter in that one year, it will be the best damn salad you had all year. And it will just really just show you that this is something worthwhile pursuing. And

You don't need to get in all green fingered and get super into gardening, but just go down to your local community garden, whatever it might be, take another take a walk around a a local city farm or community farm, whatever. There's so many ways to to connect nature in cities nowadays and

that can be quite special and I think food is a humbling way to to realize that that, plants are very important part of our lives.

Andrew (1:04:13)
Yeah, I agree. A hundred percent. We all eat every day. Most of

Harry Holding (1:04:18)
Yeah.

Andrew (1:04:23)
us. Some of the most surprising, top five or whatever, most surprising ornamental edible plants that people would be you mentioned hostas and that's surprising.

Harry Holding (1:04:33)
Hmm. Host

yeah, hostas I think has to be number one. It's the thing that so many of us in the Western world love to grow. And in Japan, they farm them. So, it's just one of those classic things that we we lose our ways a little bit with some of these plants. Not that we, would be ever farming them culturally. I think

Andrew (1:04:54)
And now before

you go on to say others though, with the hosta, is there like a point where you should stop eating it? 'Cause I know that some plants you can eat the

Harry Holding (1:05:02)
Yeah.

Andrew (1:05:02)
s the the shoots, but you shouldn't eat the the leaf. And we don't need to go too deep.

Harry Holding (1:05:06)
Yeah, when when

no, no, shoot into into young le emerging leaf and that's when you catch it. When it starts to become more maturing leaf and larger, then it becomes just tougher and you wouldn't really want to eat it. I think another one has got to be, daylilies. So wonderful edible flowers. you could and the buds of the flowers, stir fry them, stuff

batter them and and fry really delicious.

So another one is the Bistort, so Bistorta Ficionalis, which used to be called Persicaria Ficionalis. We love it as a ornamental here in the UK. Moisture loving. just grows into these wonderful clumps. And it's actually used in a traditional

northern English cultural dish called the Easter ledge pudding, which is something that, probably no one really has makes anymore. But so it's one of those fun old wild foods that that now I think people just love in their gardens but but don't know it's edible. which is an incredible one.

another would be the ostrich fern. So Metuchia struthraopsis. And I know that grows in North America as well and and it loves, damp places, sides of streams, boggier, wetter grounds. Beautiful stature as fern and not many ferns are edible, but this is wonderful as the fronds are unfurling.

little fiddleheads, treat them similar to an asparagus and just delicious, blanch them, fry them in a little bit of lemon or bit of garlic. absolutely delicious. So love them. And then possibly one of my final ones, which would be speaking maybe to more of a a North American, it's a native to southern and central US, is the purple poppy mellow.

Kaleho involucrata, I think is how it's said. It was one I came across in my my research for the book, which I'd never grown and I'm now growing a water in well was growing in my garden in Bristol. It's got a wonderful geranium like leaf and this divided and cut, but then these shocking pink magenta

Cup flowers, not that dissimilar from a geranium and quite a sprawling plant. the leaves are got a little bit of that that gelinatus type effect, but but a delicious when you use them early on. And then it has a a taproot that is that is really tasty as well. So I

imagine perhaps some people might be growing that in a garden. If they're not, I would I would highly recommend. the list could go on and on because there are

Andrew (1:08:09)
Goes yeah,

yeah. Yeah. No, that's

Harry Holding (1:08:10)
so many, but that's probably five or more and I could I could waffle on but

Andrew (1:08:15)
great. That's great.

What is one of your favorite food memories?

Harry Holding (1:08:28)
First one that comes to mind 'cause there's so many, but I think for me travelling and particularly my my late teens, early twenties, some really formative food experiences and the one that that that particularly comes to mind is I was living for several months on a beautiful island in the Philippines called Chagao, which is a surfer capital of the Philippines and

I'm useless at surfing, but I was living out there with some friends and and I can't remember the term that that was used now, but it was something like a Baudu party or something where you basically create so many incredible dishes and all our Filipino friends put it on for us and we're all cooking up amazing dishes and a whole array and you just get banana leaves just down the middle of this incredible banqueting table.

long table, just banana leaves spread all through the middle, and the dishes just get laid out across the whole middle of it, just on directly onto the leaves, and then you all just go mad eating with your hands. And just such an incredible spread of different foods. things I'd never tried before and things like some of my favourite Philippine Philadelphia dishes I loved. So that just comes to mind as a really evocative and I think what that what that speaks to is the fact that

food is about sharing and it's bringing people together, communities, and it transcends culture, age, race, whatever. we all it's a common leveler. and there's a real ragtag bunch of us there at that dinner table and all just connecting, eating with your hands, getting up close and personal with that experience and just absolutely alive with energy and flavour.

Andrew (1:10:24)
Awesome. Do you remember any any dish that stood out?

Harry Holding (1:10:30)
So many. not in terms of the names, I who knows, but the

Andrew (1:10:34)
No, yeah.

Harry Holding (1:10:35)
the kind of absolute laden with garlic and the the obviously soy sauce and garlic being fundamental. at that moment in my life I was eating a bit of fish. I've been plant based for the last twelve years, but so the the locally caught fish which, friends were catching that day were just unbelievable. I think it's is it Adobe or the the the rice dish? I haven't

been to Philippines in a long time, which is one of my favourite or a bodo. It's just yeah, an amazing cuisine and so many things that if you go to a Filipino restaurant in London, you'll just see a few a few dishes that are just the same kind of things that that you get over in the West. Whereas over there it's just just such an array of things. And and eating a banana blossom, which we do a lot now in the UK. It's a known thing, but that was the first time I came across it as a

Andrew (1:11:29)
Mm. I haven't

heard of that.

Harry Holding (1:11:30)
As a

yeah, the the banana blossom just as it's just open it up and you just cop chop it off then and then you can turn that into what we do is is use it as a fish alternative so marinade it in 'cause obviously fish and chips here in the UK is a is a cultural dish. Battered

Andrew (1:11:46)
Right. Yeah.

Harry Holding (1:11:48)
fish and chips. So we marinade it in lemon, bit of soy sauce, bit of garlic, and then you batter it, fry it and it

It's just like it's got a flaky texture like fish. Absolutely delicious. they

Andrew (1:12:01)
Hmm. Sounds great.

Harry Holding (1:12:03)
do it a lot with soy sauce and so anyway, it's some some slightly blurry memories as well because they the the local whiskey or local rum, maybe it was, tandouai was was dangerously cheap. you even when you go to a bar, the the triple tandouye and and coke or whatever it might be

was cheaper than the single because the mixers are more expensive out there and so they'd end up doing about ninety percent spirit, a ten percent mixer and

Andrew (1:12:35)
Oof.

Harry Holding (1:12:37)
yeah, so a few blurry meals I'm sure.

Andrew (1:12:40)
In combination

with being a late teens, early twenties kid traveling,

Harry Holding (1:12:44)
yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. Cheap booze, why not?