Andrew Valenti (00:02)
Alora, okay. So Davide, tell me tell me about yourself and and what Biosopha is, BioSofa.

Davide (00:11)
Okay, BioSofa or Biosofa is an enterprise that ⁓ has a goal to reduce the amount of waste ⁓ present in the ⁓ upholstery industry. Like so I'm a designer, I started a course ⁓ at Politecnico di Milano, I have a master degree in product design. Then I move along ⁓

after after the after you after the university I I started to become a designer and I ⁓ I I've explored the ⁓ nautic industry so yacht and ⁓ interior and exterior and then ⁓ I decided that I want to build something by myself so since we have in a family we have an heritage ⁓ of ⁓

woodworking and upholstery like I joined ⁓ joined my family but I wanted to change ⁓ the the attitude of ⁓ of our of our business this through the fact that ⁓ through the analysis of ⁓ of all the material that are involved into the production of ⁓ of a sofa let's say let's make it simple let's take a sofa as an example

⁓ in a sofa there are more or less forty kilograms of ⁓ standard sofa there are more or less forty kilograms of ⁓ polyuretin foam and ⁓ polyurethane form ⁓ it's it's very dangerous material because ⁓ it's not recyclable basically. Like you can find it to into also refrigeration system like ⁓ the fridge that you have at home. Probably there's polyurethane inside to to make the coimmentation of the

of the fridge itself. And ⁓ everything in for example, everything in the fridge is more or less recyclable except the gas that is contained inside and and the polyureth foam. So basically you cut it in super small pieces but then ⁓ you don't know what to do with those ⁓ with those ⁓ with those polyurethum. And ⁓ so we we wanted to remove that.

And ⁓ we wanted to remove also all the synthetic fibers because the sofa is con is constituted by layer of different material glues glued together basically. And so there is nylon there is there is the resin that is used ⁓ with plywood or ⁓ or other composite wooden material. There is ⁓

Polystyrene, there is ⁓ polyurethone, and and there are the other fibers that compose ⁓ also the the the exterior the external padding. So we started to replace all those ⁓ all those fibers one by one, and we went back to the previous construct to to previous method of construction because the plastic is a

⁓ plastic and polyurethane are pretty recent material. There are on the market ⁓ since the fif six fifties, sixties, ⁓ 19 1950, 1960. And ⁓ we went we moved back and ⁓ we found out some new materials that were in tune with our ⁓ with our production and some some some something we have mutated from directly from the past like ⁓ youth belts

Andrew Valenti (03:44)
Mm-hmm.

Davide (04:01)
⁓ springs that are still in use for certain kind of productions, hardwood ⁓ hardwood frames, and ⁓ but the most difficult part we need to replace where the the foam of course and we replace it with ⁓ 100% natural latex there are two ways of producing it and we we are using both the the download method and the talala depending on the supplier we have

And ⁓ then there is also the the padding that now we do we do depending on the model and depending on the on the request of the client can be ⁓ totally vegan so it comes only from ⁓ from from ⁓ the vegetal world and ⁓ but for other for other for other clients ⁓ that wants ⁓ that wants

animal fiber we can also use wool and ⁓ and feathers because this is we have ⁓ we have a huge heritage on using those those two materials ⁓ in ⁓ in our in our production even if right now we are we want to move almost totally towards the vegetal side because even we have

certification for the feather and for the wool of course like ⁓ there are there ⁓ the supply chain ⁓ even if it's not so big for for those things you you cannot be really sure at one hundred percent because certification also in this world ⁓ are pretty that this is another chapter of the discussion may that may be that we may go deep in but ⁓ actually like

Andrew Valenti (05:55)
I plan on it. Yeah.

Davide (05:56)
The certification in these fields ⁓ are very sectorial the and ⁓ so like ⁓ I believe more in ⁓ I go to a supplier, I I evaluate him, I talk to him, I see where they where they get this their stuff. If it's a long supply chain we go like the the the the shorter the better of course, but if we have to get kapok for example

that is not it's it's it's a fiber that doesn't grow in ⁓ in Italy basically or in Europe. ⁓ we need to be sure that everything is done by the book. So there must be an economy behind and we need to evaluate also if the the the the the the labour of the people who are investing who is investing it is is in line with our values. So it's a it's a big thing, but everything is concur like the first

the first thing in my that I had in my mind is to create a biodegradable sofa. So it's it's ⁓ sofa is a mix of those p of ⁓ of a lot of different pieces and ⁓ you can say like but this is ⁓ now the industry say but this part is ⁓ is ⁓ replaceable this other part can be ⁓ can be recycled and this other part is natural but the mix is not

And usually it lands into a landfill or ⁓ if we are lucky it's burned by by a t ⁓ by a thermal ⁓ thermodestroyer that makes energy. ⁓ I don't know how to call it in English. Th we we call it the thermo ⁓ thermalorizatory but it's ⁓ it's it's incinerator. It's an incinerator. That's what it is, exactly. Yeah.

Andrew Valenti (07:48)
Yeah, super super high heat waste of energy, yeah.

Davide (07:54)
And and so we want to be sure that ⁓ if we if if ⁓ our one of our pieces goes into landfill in six to eight years ⁓ doesn't leave any trace. That was my goal. The goal of a client is to keep it as ⁓ as much longer as possible.

Andrew Valenti (08:09)
That's great.

Davide (08:15)
Because sometimes like when when we started the business we had clients say like so I'm gonna buy this thing and then in five years, six years gonna it's gonna it's gonna crumble down like I say no obviously not. ⁓ it it's ⁓ it's made in a way that in certain kind of condition, very specific ones, ⁓ it crumbles down. It it destroys by itself. But

if you ⁓ it's it's also made to endure because for example also the the building of the of the piece ⁓ of the of the sofa is very important. We we care that ⁓ every single piece like the back rest the armrest can be disjointed by by by the ba from the base. So ⁓ in case of ⁓ wariness like if you use one part more than the other or there's

there's a problem in one of the components of the of the sofa. This can be removed by an artisan on on spot or you can send send it back to us. And ⁓ depending on where we obviously depending on where where the sofa is and which is the most ⁓ useful action to repair to repair this piece. ⁓ and so you can you can disassemble it.

Andrew Valenti (09:36)
Mm-hmm.

Davide (09:40)
you can open with zip to verify the inner part. Like this is something that is not ⁓ is not pre these features are not present on many on many sofas because ⁓ now the the culture is still producing for ⁓ like ⁓ to the production the production world works like that like ⁓ the reduction co reduction of the cost of production

And no thinking about the dismission.

Okay.

Andrew Valenti (10:13)
So I'm curious to ask then about

About your lineage and so your father and your grandfather, they were in the furniture industry too. So this is something that I'm I see within agriculture, right? So the our our parents and our grandparents' generation kind of they adopted all of the the new petroleum-based chemicals to sprint on the fields and all that. And it's the same thing with furniture, like the adoption of plastics. So when you came to them with this this new idea, how did they respond?

Davide (10:36)
MC.

⁓ Well there are two generations like I was ⁓ I was in contact with the my father's generation and my grandfather because my grandfather was a woodw was a woodworker and my gr my father is still an apostler. So like ⁓ my grandfather grandfather has all has reminiscence about the method

Pre-plastic method, let's call it pre-plastic ⁓ industry method. So it was also we were talking about also about glues, because when when you were putting together glues before ⁓ before the advent of of the the the synthetic glues, they were using ⁓ fish glue. I I don't I I don't know how to call it. We we call it colla di pesce

Andrew Valenti (11:15)
Yeah. Yeah.

Davide (11:42)
It's fish glue basically. Like it's jelly j fish j fish jelly that you basic you you you heat it up and that it becomes a very strong glue to put to for for the wood. Now we are we are also using vinylic glue.

Andrew Valenti (11:48)
Yeah.

Wow. How cool.

Davide (12:02)
Because this is this is something that is totally harmless even for children. You can use it at school. The children can also ingest ⁓ small quantities of these of this glue without any any direct reaction of the of the organism. So it's it's okay. We c but we started with that ⁓ with that ⁓ fish glue. And so like it was like ⁓

jump ⁓ jump in the past for him like trying to figure out what they were using when he was young and he started to ⁓ to learn the the art of ⁓ of making ⁓ of making furniture out of wood. ⁓

So it was more prone and more linked with that kind of world. And it was fantastic while with my father was ⁓ and and his gen the generation of people that were here working with us, ⁓ concurring into the creation of th this new ⁓ this new attitude for for the for the production for the production, they were less

I s I ⁓ I must say less involved because they didn't see the they didn't see the point much, the seller, but we we can make it faster. We now we also we already have some codification and also the supply chain is much more easier to to deal with. Why do we have to complicate things and move back and try and make new stuff ⁓ and maybe failing like they were looking more at the

⁓ can I say like ⁓ the yeah the practical way and ⁓ and the fact that like they didn't want to lose money or time on st stuff that it would ⁓ it would have been ⁓ risky and maybe not not as remunerative as the other one.

Andrew Valenti (13:59)
Mm.

Davide (14:00)
So I t I was a battle with the last with the with the new like with the middle generation were was more a battle than with the with the former one.

Andrew Valenti (14:11)
Yeah. So when did you did you have like an aha moment or when did you realize that okay this is the direction that that I need to take take this with the natural materials?

Davide (14:19)
That that I realized ⁓ during the university because I've made this ⁓ like I forgot the name of the professor and I'm really sorry about this, but I couldn't couldn't ⁓ get back to because it was it was not ⁓ it was a professor from Politecnico, but it was a young one

and it was not one of the of the people who had ⁓ cathedra in the ⁓ like so it was not an institutional professor but it was was ⁓ was was a young professor that ⁓ that got that course that hold that course for ⁓ for a couple of years and ⁓ the name of ⁓ the name of ⁓ the the course was ⁓

life cycle assessment design. So we started to the case is the first case history we got was ⁓ an electric vehicle. Tesla was not even there. Like they were talking about the ⁓ the energy consumption in making producing and ⁓ analyzing also the in the life in the whole life cycle of ⁓ of these

car that wasn't existing yet compared to a standard car with a with an a combustion engine. And it was ⁓ it was nice because like they were the with this comparison was a 360 degree. The energy to build, the energy to build the system, the energy ⁓ that to

to put into the vehicle to to make it move, the energy for disassembly, like and they were more or less comparable the two things while we were talking, okay, but these this this energy vehicle was it's far less because there's less consumption, there's no no oil industry. But it was at that time was on that one was on the same level. So these things like that make ⁓ it makes me

make me thought about also my industry, the industry I was living in. Because we are artisan but ⁓ our region

is a co is ⁓ it's full of enterprise that are making the same thing, that to make furniture. Like all the big brands, all the ⁓ most well known luxury brands comes in ⁓ are spread in an area of more or less twenty kilometer twenty twenty s twenty kilometers, a radius of twenty.

Andrew Valenti (17:04)
well.

Davide (17:05)
So we have so many luxury enterprises here and they all do the same. With all and we are it's like ⁓ as in in in small in ⁓ in a smaller ⁓ in small ⁓ in small like it's like the cluster production that you were find in j ⁓ in Japan for the automotive sector. Well onda, Yamaha, ⁓

Andrew Valenti (17:30)
Mm-hmm.

Davide (17:34)
Suzuki, all those big ⁓ enterprises were in reality a cluster of far smaller enterprises that were put together and were were producing parts in the 60s, ⁓ 50s, 60s, and then they come out as big Toyota became the the biggest ⁓ the big biggest player on the market out of that team. We are just in the same, just in the same ⁓ feeling. So like I was thinking that if I develop

Andrew Valenti (17:45)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Davide (18:04)
something that could be used and spread also towards those big players that could have been a nice things to to study. I didn't see it as a as a an entrepreneurial ⁓ opportunity, but more more like ⁓ a research one in which I can f I in which I could finance the res the research of of it by myself.

Andrew Valenti (18:26)
Mm.

Okay, cool. So very ⁓ curious, you're just curious to dive into it.

Davide (18:38)
Yeah because we have we have an enterprise. We have well it it's not so big. But this makes us pretty agile, no? We can

We can make mistakes, we can learn pretty fast and then redo everything without ⁓ calling ten people or asking permit asking for permission. We have at the beginning we had ⁓ our standard business producing for third party or producing for project like hotel, big project that we were part of of ⁓ of a bigger circuit, basically as I said.

And then we we were we were moving parallelly, we were moving along with our Biosofa project that at that time was not called like that, but had had another name, was called Deco, but it's another story.

Andrew Valenti (19:28)
Okay. So you talked a little bit about the all the materials that are in kind of ev most every other sofa. Like and it sounds like it's all pretty much petroleum products, you know, at the end of the day.

Davide (19:40)
Yeah, basically it's polyuretone, polyesters, and other like nylon and other fiber, but they they were come all coming ⁓ from ⁓ from the the the the oil industry basically. Yes.

Andrew Valenti (19:51)
Yeah. So let's get into your materials then. And when I go on your website, I see so many different certifications and eco-labels. Now I come from a world of of agriculture, so I know what some of these certifications mean. So let's let's dive into some of those a little bit.

Davide (20:00)
Mm.

Okay, funny. Well, ⁓ do you have any do you have a peculiar like ⁓ a question on one specific material or it's more a general discussion?

Andrew Valenti (20:21)
General discussion, but you know, we'll we'll pinpoint ⁓ one of the certifications because one that I see very often is the Ocotex certification. And now I also see that on synthetic materials.

Davide (20:37)
Yes, because ⁓ oikotex certification is not related to the ⁓ to the composition of ⁓ of the piece. Like t usually it's it's used for textile because it's the it's the last ⁓ cover. Like it's where like it's the c textile is the contact between human body, ⁓ dressed or undressed and the and the product. So oekotex ⁓

has the goal of certifying that the the material is harmless. They l they they sh they they use this image like if I put a newborn baby on a piece of this ta of your textile of ⁓ on a piece of the material we are certificating this baby doesn't have to develop any rush or any kind of discomfort or any ⁓ doesn't have to

To have any kind of allergic reaction. It must be a pure material on which you can you can just give it, give the baby to that material and feel sure and safe about ⁓ about the destiny of this poor little child. And ⁓ and this is it. Like so there are different kinds of degrees, there's a ecotext 1000 to 100, like depending. But this is basically a question of ⁓

safety so can be can be totally synthetic there are materials that are sort of ⁓ safe but they are synthetic or totally synthetic

Andrew Valenti (22:09)
And now yep.

Now are there any of the certifiers or labels that you work with that you feel are more transparent than than another one? Like ones that you can really trust and see through their process?

Davide (22:36)
Well, like ⁓ the one that are more transparent are the one they are publishing numbers. Like there's ⁓ this Oco Institute that's not eco test is an ⁓ is another is a testing institute ⁓ that is ⁓ based in Germany and they are certifying the composition of the natural latex. Like I always search ⁓ like before for example now in latex we are we are moving along

⁓ we are searching for other suppliers because we had the one single supplier that was producing latex five kilometers from from our base. So it was an Italian producer. But then after COVID they had to remodernate their ⁓ their factory because it's a chemical factory basically. They they need to put everything under

There were new standards and they didn't want to get into the the trouble of ⁓ renovating the whole ⁓ the whole chemical ⁓ production. Even if because that was partly latex and partly not. So the yeah the latex was was the less ⁓ they have they have a bigger ⁓ a bigger business on ⁓ also on the on the on the synthetic forms. But then they said like they

they too they they they they take the the their know-how and so they transfer to Sri Lanka and they start ⁓ producing there and yeah like they there were and now they are slowly dismissing their ⁓ their production and at this bo this year they are ⁓ they are s they stopped their production and ⁓ so we ⁓ now we are

checking ⁓ other suppliers. There are Belgian suppliers, for example, that has the same ⁓ test ⁓ Orco te Oco Institute test and we we got along with them and we started ⁓ to get their their pieces and then now we are also testing ⁓ imported ⁓ imported latex but we are less sure like we want that also also the testing because it's very important for us like the

Because also in 100% natural latex ⁓ there's this a percentage of latex ⁓ that can be like there's ⁓ five to ten percent, even a little bit more, of ⁓ of sa ⁓ substances that ⁓ could be not from natural origin. So if it's the silicone that they spray to to make the the latex detach for from their ⁓ vulcanization chamber.

Andrew Valenti (25:19)
Mm-hmm.

Davide (25:30)
Okay because there are no other possibilities. But then you can clean it. You can wash it and then you clean the you c you can clean the ⁓ the ⁓ the nature the nature one of the percent nature latrix mattress and then you have like in the production ⁓ you declare two percent of silicon for for these things but then on the finished product there is nothing. It's all nature.

But if you drag it with other synthetic ⁓ with other synthetic foam to make it ⁓ balanced and to ⁓ this is this is made usually it's made to make the process faster and to make the process less costly because faster means less less production cost of course. and so we are very attentive on these things. This is very important certification because numbers

Andrew Valenti (26:22)
Okay.

Davide (26:27)
Numbers are numbers. If you test for something and ⁓ the the institution is ⁓ is independent and ⁓ is made for this reason, that's okay. Other things are consortium like PFC for example and FSC for the wood ⁓ for me as yes, we we sir we we got ⁓ we got wood that had that has that kind of certification ⁓ so forest year

forest Stewardship Council and ⁓ PFC that is another another ⁓ institution that ⁓ for for reforestation and for labeling ⁓ and for ⁓ guaranteeing the the supply chain saying that that that this tree comes out ⁓ from that that is that comes from that region basically and we replant another tree when we when we get one ⁓

Those are more

Those are more entities that are making money out of that. Because for example, like it's not that only the people who are who get who harvest the material, who cut the tree, they have to they need to have that certification. And ⁓ so you ⁓ you say but but they say that FSC say that all the enterprises that are involved into into this supply ⁓ FSC supply chain.

In order to use the brand FSC, you need to be registered.

Andrew Valenti (28:04)
Mm-hmm.

Davide (28:04)
And so you are su j ⁓ but this is not a quest they say that is a question of ⁓

of control because they say like you get you get you say that ⁓ ESFSC but it's not but ⁓ and but it but basically it's paper because there's there's there's there's no much con not much control. The control is is in the forest like so it's okay if ⁓ but if ⁓ if I buy ⁓ on on the paper ⁓ on the paper is ⁓ on the paper of the of the tree that I cut

Andrew Valenti (28:31)
Right.

Davide (28:44)
is written that the the provenience of that ⁓ of that of that ⁓ of that wood comes from there from is enough. Why do we have to pay redund there's redundancy paying sis there's a redundant pay system that makes ⁓ makes these ⁓ organisms survive getting bigger but there is no there's no big there's no real point. It's more a lucrative thing, no?

Andrew Valenti (29:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, I understand. ⁓ I'm I'm curious to get back into latex because I'm so curious what that process looks like. So it comes from a a tree, a rubber tree. And so how does it become then latex?

Davide (29:30)
Yeah, usually they use they're using the

⁓ the limp ⁓ the ⁓ I d I d I do you call it limpha you said you just say right now like the

Andrew Valenti (29:47)
Is it the like the the sap? Yeah.

Davide (29:49)
The sap, exactly. Of the the step of the ⁓ of the tree it's called the the species is Evea Brasiliensis, even if it is not like its originary or ⁓ it it origins in Brazil but ⁓ it's spread all around from Africa to ⁓ to to east to far east basically and ⁓ in India also. Basically they you cut you get the sap.

And then ⁓ with a p in a process that involves water and the vulcanization, so the they they are vulcanizing thing like ⁓ so it bec it became a ru it became a so a solid rubber. Then he then you ⁓ it it sorry, that doesn't become a solid rubber. I'm sorry this is ⁓ can can we redo this because like ⁓ I may I've made a mistake. We can

Andrew Valenti (30:48)
No, yeah. You can start up right. No, that's fine, that's fine, I'll add it to that.

Davide (30:48)
We can get along with this thing we are I'm sorry. Like basically you you rec you cover you you recover the ⁓ the sap from from this ⁓ from from this tree and then ⁓ you ⁓ you have these this liquid, this white latiginous liquid that ⁓ is vulcanized.

And that's all that's the only thing. Like you put it with what you mix it with water and then you cook it. ⁓ this is the same bread basically is more or less the same process that is used for polyurethone form. But ⁓ in polyurethane form you have to imagine to some it that is something like bread like ⁓ cassette bread. Like you see you have ⁓ you have a continuous oven ⁓ s

continuous cycle open so you they spread ⁓ it's a it's a chamber of two by two by ten meters by twenty meters with ⁓ with a tapirulan over that goes very slow. This chamber gets warm and warmer and warmer and then these on polyurethane form these ⁓ this foam start to levitate and to to full the wall space of the

Of the oven, then comes out, it comes out in solid in solid state, and then you cut it. And this is polyurethane form. In ⁓ in latex, it's much more difficult because the density, density, and the substance is far different. So you need to fill up ⁓ chambers with pins that are inside. It's like more or less, ⁓ you know, the the

instrument of torture that was called Iron Maiden. You know the this sarcophagus that was opening and there were nails inside and you close a person in. More or less the same thing. Pretty gruesome, but it's more or less the same, but because those pin it needs to be heated in order to get ⁓ to get a vulcanization also in the ⁓ the inside part. So while a polyurethane form

Andrew Valenti (32:47)
Okay, yeah.

Yeah. Wow.

Davide (33:10)
can can grow up to two meters without any sarcophagus around. The the maximum weight that a latex form ⁓ piece can can reach is more or less eighteen centimeters. So it's very it's very it's very narrow. And it must be heated all all inside because in if not there will be ⁓ was not

Andrew Valenti (33:27)
Mm. Okay.

Davide (33:36)
would be not a mattr ⁓ a steady hard mattress but it would be souffle because there's gonna be liquid inside and hard on the outside. I don't know if I express myself ⁓ if if you if you have the imagine in your head right now. But this is the this is another what ⁓ this is another reason why latex costs more because it cannot be a continuous cycle production but it's ⁓ it's more time

Andrew Valenti (33:46)
Okay. Huh.

No, I understand, yeah.

Davide (34:06)
⁓ more s time spending then you have also the harvest and so the ratio between the cost of a natural latex and ⁓ polyurethone foam is one to four, one to five for the same reason. So it's a lot.

Andrew Valenti (34:20)
Wow. Yeah. And you don't need to cut the tree down, you can just tap into it.

Davide (34:26)
Yes. Yes. You you just cut you just make a you just make scar in the tree and then you collect the the sap Yes.

Andrew Valenti (34:36)
Like like maple syrup, the way yeah.

Davide (34:38)
Yeah. Same same thing. The fact the fact is that all ⁓ there were also studies about ⁓ the sustainability of the agriculture of this because like in F in Africa, like this is an industry that ⁓ since it's not so difficult to to harvest also children are involved into this and ⁓ so you can't be sure one hundred percent that everything is ⁓

is aligned with this with our standard. What we are trying to to to figure out is the pro is ⁓ that ⁓ first like what we can we can control is the ⁓ is the nah is is that the ⁓ the the percentage of natural latex that is inside our one hundred percent natural lattex masters and that that's the first thing and then now on we are also exploring the

⁓ the way of production and the way of our vet harvesting when it's declared from our European suppliers. It's a little bit more difficult to go to the Far East and then ask for these ⁓ for papers like that. Let's say that we do our best to to keep ⁓ to to get our material from a controlled supply chain like for example Kapok

Andrew Valenti (36:03)
Mm-hmm.

Davide (36:06)
We are this is another fiber. We have a 100% control supply chain. I can talk about this also if you want, because there is this enterprise that is led by a Venetian girls and an ⁓ a Dutch guy that are together. They started like they were importers of kapok, that is this fiber.

This is Kapok is a very is a very nice fiber because ⁓ it's a fruit. You find you fight it you find it into the fruit so you don't have to cut anything like it's like a cocoa cocoa fruit that

Andrew Valenti (36:36)
Mm-hmm.

Davide (36:45)
big big cocoa fruit, you open it, and then you see there are like you know the the fruit of cotton, no? The cotton balls. But one one in line. And there's a lot of ⁓ there's a lot of fluffy fluffy fibers inside. And then you

Andrew Valenti (36:53)
Yes, yeah.

Uh-huh.

Davide (37:07)
you you get them and you take them out and ⁓ you use it as ⁓ as wool and as a vegetal wool basically and ⁓ they create a supply chain that is total traceable because there are no plantation kapok just ⁓ there are areas of ⁓ of ⁓ Indonesia in which ⁓ kapok

Andrew Valenti (37:15)
Mm-hmm.

Davide (37:36)
naturally. So they go there, they they plant a sort of farm, they they build a they build a small building and then they involve all the women

Andrew Valenti (37:37)
Hmm.

Davide (37:47)
they they they create ⁓ a matriarchal society basically in which because we like ⁓ women are less prone to work ⁓ less ⁓ self-sufficient they pay them fair fairly like so they can sustain themselves ⁓ get an house like ⁓ they they sustain the housing also and so they create a virtuous circle in which there's ⁓

those women that are taking care of the of the of the collecting but they also emancipate themselves for from a patriarchal society and then they import all those those kapok and ⁓ the ⁓ all the all the working system the all the all the all the working on the fiber is made here in Italy.

Andrew Valenti (38:26)
Mm.

Great.

Davide (38:41)
or in Europe depending on the client they have. But the f the the nice thing is that you see that everything is ⁓ every passage of the of the supply chain is ⁓ it's sort of certified by themselves. They send us photos, they they say like this is ⁓ this is this is very this is very nice and this is very transparent. That but not many not many business are ⁓ are made like that.

Andrew Valenti (39:04)
Yeah.

Totally.

Davide (39:10)
We try to find out the the right supplier, that's what we do. It's more important that than the certification.

Andrew Valenti (39:14)
Yeah. It's really interesting, you know. I'm I'm working on

something similar in in the food world where you know it it feels like the supply chain is that that level of trust and that level of transparency. Not more so than the certification because when you can really see who's going there, you know, and and when they can share the the photos and the videos of the people doing it and what the working conditions look like. Like that that makes the the buyer just all the more confident. It's like, okay, great. I know that I'm getting something good.

Davide (39:48)
Yeah, plus there's no there's no secrets. Like usually when you have like certifications are used when people that do not want to talk about the supply chain.

Andrew Valenti (40:01)
Yeah. Totally.

Davide (40:03)
Because if you if you if you if you do something different or if you like like those guys, let's say like okay we don't need certification, we can we can show you the the the plant, we can we can also plan a visit there because they are moving back and forth. And it's it's another thing like when when when when there is a barrier

when the suppliers say you can't come into my my factory or you can't come into into my area of investing because like ⁓ it's not possible or we don't know where we get this like this is these are ⁓ sounding alarms that start b r that like bells that rings that says like mm maybe this guy is not ⁓

And then it then it comes out, but we have certification. But that that's and that's not that's not cool. I want to see

Andrew Valenti (40:59)
Right. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's important to think about, you know, with with all the things that we we interact with on on a daily basis, like our furniture, our food, our clothing, you know, there's it's it's all things to consider and think about.

Davide (41:19)
Yeah that's but that's why we don't we don't want to we we want to move along from the from the feather because we have set down there's a downstandard for feathers that's cruelty free. There are those are cruelty free feathers So like yes, fine. There's still a dead animal behind, like fine. ⁓ but the thing is like ⁓ if there's a certification

But the process also the

If you're if you can't be sure one hundred percent, we got a material that more or less has the same ⁓ has the same outcome in term of comfort, in term of durability, in terms of ⁓ characteristic, like physical characteristic like agros hygroscopicity agros it's i agroscopic too like, so it's like less like the the other one.

⁓ so why don't we like we we the the supply chain is far better, we're gonna we're gonna move towards that one. We're gonna experiment a little bit and then we push out the other.

Andrew Valenti (42:38)
And so what about wool? Because I I understand that you know the sheep doesn't need to be killed. ⁓ and also that sheep do need to be sheared every every year. So and I also understand that there's a lot of wool that goes to waste. It just goes right into landfill all all around the world. So how do you guys source your wool and and ⁓ what are your thoughts on that?

Davide (42:50)
Yes.

⁓ with wool we have we have two or three different ⁓ sources and it because like we don't source wool directly but through our

Cardatori. So the people who are who are working the wool, like who were ⁓ how do you how do you know like how do you say like every

Andrew Valenti (43:29)
Yeah, Carabatori, maybe it's that they they clean it and they print it more into the product.

Davide (43:32)
Yeah, they clean they clean, they remove exactly. They and then they they make it ⁓ fluffy. And ⁓ what they do is that ⁓ they have different like and and then there's the textile. The textile side ⁓ we usually get wool from a big company. We we don't have many many su many suppliers because wool is not material we use as we use much for the textile because like

can be also fresh, s certain kind of texture in wool you wouldn't say that it that is wool w if you touch it and if you s if you sit down even even in summer. But since we are coming from ⁓ a region that ⁓ and since people when when they buy it's it's more or less ⁓ a visual ⁓ visual attitude of the client that figures out that a wool sofa is just for the winter.

It's it's that. So we don't have big consumption. We have this this one one or two suppliers and both ⁓ they have certification that you that is called New Zealand wool. So they they s they harvesting massively from from from ne from New Zealand. That is a per peculiar kind of wood wool. They ⁓ they also have all the certification.

They have green labels also that are related from the from with the with their supply chain. So they are pretty secure. And ⁓ while with the other with the other one, we have ⁓ with the with the padding with the padding wool we have different supplier. One is in ⁓ is also in Sardinia. And I as you say, like ⁓ instead of throwing away all these

There's a lot of sheep in Sardinia, so instead of throwing them away, throwing through them away the ⁓ the shortest fiber of wool they are they are using and they are making ⁓ also technical material, technical padding material with that thing. So this is no certification area, but we know all the supply chain directly. So it's okay. Other one

Andrew Valenti (45:32)
Yeah.

Davide (45:58)
that are in in Veneto so it's ⁓ near nearby us in the north of e northern of Italy northern northern Italy. It's ⁓ more industrial complex. They they do different materials ⁓ and then there's ⁓ their supply chain ⁓ has certification related to the provenience like you know you can even choose like a mix of ⁓ alpaca with ⁓

with normal wool because they are working also in the bedding industry. So this is ⁓ it's called Olympia the the name of the suppliers. They are they're pretty big and they're pretty professional. But they didn't get much into the

Andrew Valenti (46:43)
Great.

Davide (46:50)
I I I got the certification but ⁓ I didn't ask for a completely disclosure of their ⁓ of their supply chain. Because it was not possible. And at the same time those guys are giving the but we are we have a good ⁓ a good relationship because they also provide ⁓ cotton fever fiber and linen.

Andrew Valenti (47:01)
Right. Okay. Interesting.

Davide (47:16)
linen it's it's European provenience because it's ⁓ Lille so it's France northern north of France and we are ⁓ we are making a mix ⁓ for the padding ⁓ ninety percent of our padding is made by this mix of ⁓ linen and cotton ⁓ fibers. Put them put them together. And ⁓ we are trying to make it more and more linen because the cotton industry

Andrew Valenti (47:36)
Mm.

Davide (47:46)
as you say, like it's very it's it's it's it's difficult to to to figure out the provenance of cotton. So we are trying to substitute as more and more with our ⁓ with the with the European linen. The fact is that ⁓ under a certain kind of ⁓ percentage of cotton ⁓ it loses a little bit a bit of fluffiness the whole thing so we need to

Andrew Valenti (48:02)
Mm.

Davide (48:14)
to stay more or less fifty fifty, sixty forty. And the nice thing is that depend we we can create the fiber that we want. We can engineer and produce ⁓ the ⁓ the weight and the the height of the padding we want. So it's very it's pretty various, but the materials is remains the same.

Andrew Valenti (48:17)
Okay.

Hmm, cool. I'm curious to talk about the the health benefits, because you guys mentioned that on your website. So to me it seems obvious that sitting on natural materials is better for your health, but what are s what's some of the things that you tell your customers in regard to the health benefits of s you know, living with these natural materials?

Davide (48:38)
Well,

Okay, first thing is related with ⁓ with the composition of the of the of the material. If you like it's like ingredients in the in ⁓ in food. You say like the less ingredients there are, the healthier the food. Same same same. Like if also in the if in the production of synthetic fibers there are many many chemicals that are

are involved in the production of a fiber or c of cotton or of fiber of linen, there are not so many. The the making of the of the of the of the compound is totally mechanical because you put fiber together and so that's that's only it's only that thing. In wool you wash the wool and then you you you have a mechanical work.

to to create the material for the padding material so the same same while ⁓ if a poly if there's a polyester you need to create the polyol, you need to make a chemical process and then there's gonna be ⁓ a mechanical one and then there's gonna be glued or then there's gonna be a thermo ⁓ thermo gluing and then in order to make it fluffy you can you also

put silicone all over because if not it's gonna it's an anti-stat silicone is an anti-static so ⁓ but it's it's a substance that stays in and permeate the the the material plus ⁓ let's say ⁓ so less sophistication the better for the health then there's also ⁓ the peeling like

Andrew Valenti (50:44)
Mm.

Davide (50:56)
For example, if you use like there are also polyester. Polyester is a material ⁓ that is heavy used ⁓ in the textile industry. Usually it's ⁓ what is eighty five fifteen like for for a for ⁓ the percentage between natural material and synthetic is more or less this one.

Andrew Valenti (51:08)
Mm-hmm.

Davide (51:23)
in a any world industry even more like if you if you look at ⁓ this is this is in in our field. If you look globally also if you if you look at fashion industry it's even it's even more. And ⁓ but all these like when you when you wash it or when you rub over it there's those little filaments of ⁓ of

Andrew Valenti (51:36)
Yeah.

Davide (51:50)
plastic material that you can inhale, you can you touch, it it's they stocks in your ⁓ in your in your body tissue like it's ⁓ it's not that has to permeate, it's not ⁓ an agent I I'm not gonna say these ⁓ these things of contamination like no like it's not but it's a contamination for for our environment. So if I can

avoid this kind of contamination and use ⁓ a thing like if if I rub against a cotton ⁓ cotton shirt yes there's gonna be fibers on in my body but they they're gonna ⁓ in a in a short period of time ⁓ they're gonna be flushed away and when they are they are back they are back in the the environment they're gonna destroy by themselves because it's a nature material. So it's good for the health of

mi of my of me myself but also on the environment we are living in because ⁓ as you say like ⁓ environment is a fin is a limited space. If you we fill up of g on of ⁓ of garbage and the next generation is gonna be more and then the the next generation is gonna be more and more and more, the space is gonna is gonna finish and we're gonna be polluted forever.

with natural material these things doesn't happen. Doesn't happen in your home, doesn't happen in your ⁓ in a in a larger environment that can be a city or a state or a country or or the whole world. So in this way using ⁓ all natural ⁓ piece of furniture is far better than using ⁓ one

Plus there's ⁓ for for example for chemicals ⁓ there's the question of fire retardency and of ⁓ because some some polyurethane form and also latex because there are some there for for certain kind of certification you need ⁓ fireproof latex ⁓ can be drugged by C they call it column C it's ⁓ fire it's fire retardant ⁓

fire retarded comp compounds and ⁓ those like ⁓ if if if the thing catch fires because after a while it catches fires and there's a video on our ⁓ on our side that is pretty interesting I don't know if you saw it it's go go there check because ⁓ it shows you a natural piece and ⁓ fireproof piece fireproof taking fire.

Andrew Valenti (54:27)
I didn't see that one. No.

Davide (54:39)
⁓ two two environment one totally fireproof ⁓ and one one all natural and then you tell you tell me which is more hazardous for your ⁓ for your ⁓ for your health and and then for even in in which one you would like to stay when when the when the fire catches because those things are ⁓ are really bad and

Andrew Valenti (54:59)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Davide (55:07)
This is something very visual, like ⁓ because like ⁓ I'm sorry. I need to attach my my computer to to to an e an energy source. I'm I'm gonna come back in two seconds.

Andrew Valenti (55:19)
Okay. Yeah, fine. Yeah.

Davide (56:49)
Sorry.

Eccomi, sorry. ⁓

Andrew Valenti (57:36)
Okay. I just have a few more few more questions I want to talk about. ⁓ so for me looking for

An organic, a bio, a natural piece of furniture, it is so hard to find. And then finding you, it is also very expensive. and learning more about the whole process, it's understandable why it is so expensive. ⁓ and also probably why it's so rare to even find somebody attempting this. So is there anybody else in in your scope that you're working with?

'Cause your your pieces are very design focused, very beautiful. Like they're they're made to last and and be be a heritage piece. I I feel like if I were to get one of your sofa, it would be passed down to generations. so who else is in this in this realm that you are and what do you think the the future is of natural material furniture?

Davide (58:44)
⁓ the industry itself as I say like it's not not very respondent to to these to this attitude because ⁓ like ⁓ they don't feel the need yet because basically it's set like that. It's like ⁓ the electric car and and the combustion engine. Like but

especially on ⁓ on an inter on a on a on on a luxury like there are there are two there are two kind of industry the the one that is ⁓ that's called the IKEA one. No the popular one and ⁓ and the sort of elite call it elite but even if it's if even if it's not. What ⁓ the the IKEA one

is is not very much interested into this because the there's a limit upon the ⁓ the the supply chain because polyurethane form is vastly this ⁓ available their volumes are far more are bigger by far than than the natural lattex one.

obviously for for us is not a problem because it's ⁓ it's ⁓ it's real it's a relatively modest

production the one we have. So we're gonna deal directly with with the supplier and then we ask them periodically to to give us some volumes of these but an an IKEA couldn't do like that. It has to create plus the cost. Like ⁓ an IKEA sofa would ⁓ triple to quadruple the the

the cost of it because the the material it's it's pretty costly. Then there's ⁓ they couldn't they you you have to find a way to cut it in a different way because it's polyureth foam cuts are ⁓ one thing and then you can also in ⁓ in set like there are many cases in which the polyureth polyuretone foam form is pre-formed into ⁓

into molds, no? There is mold and then polyurethome is injected. With latex these things you can maybe do but it's not ⁓ it's not super nice. You do it with cushions. For for headrest cushions you can do that. But for a bigger pieces it's far more far more difficult to find out. It's more costly to create the molds. And nobody has already experimented in these ⁓ on this side.

while ⁓ my cluster as i say it's it's a cluster of luxury enterprises we do we make one-to-one solution ⁓ there are a lot of brands that comes out of here so it's ⁓ it's more luxury oriented industry what we are doing

is like is not to get rid of this heritage because we produce as you can see like we are pretty transparent. We don't want ⁓ a distribution ⁓ channel that is not us directly because we tried

our products were not ⁓ understood one hundred percent by by the one by the people who were selling us were and it happened that we had we received phone call from ⁓ buyers the consum consumers so it was consumer market that was that has already buy one of our pieces from ⁓

from a showroom somewhere and they didn't even know the characteristic of it. They didn't even know that they were possessing ⁓ total nature of furniture. And I say this is not acceptable. Okay, maybe our good our nice pieces are good looking but the core of my of my ⁓ of my business ⁓ is not the sa the sale of ⁓ the sale itself

Andrew Valenti (1:03:04)
Wow. Yeah.

Davide (1:03:22)
but is like also to spread awareness on on those kind of teams. And they didn't know I so it was for me it was a completely failure. And so I say okay, there's no shop that are promoting those value in furniture. So there's no theme shop on all natural furniture except a couple of ⁓ exception here in Europe.

and couple maybe in in America, but America was mixed because of cost of it's it's always related with ⁓ with ⁓ to get the the bigger ⁓ a bigger area in the market. So you cannot limit yourself.

From my point of from my perspective you have to limit yourself if you do this kind of business. Because you cannot say like, we're producing all natural because this is our goal. But don't worry, if you don't if you don't have enough money, we can produce it also the same model. If you like the same model we're gonna produce it ⁓ synthetic, no no problem. It will cost forty percent less, but it's okay and like because like why we are

like our goal is to make less and less ⁓ synthetic ⁓ synthetic production. So we do not aware these we do not recognize this model of development. What we can do is like

Andrew Valenti (1:04:46)
Yeah.

Davide (1:04:56)
Talking di directly to the client. It's true that maybe we have clients that couldn't ⁓ physically try a sofa. And that's pretty difficult to understand because usually say I go to the shop and I try what when what is comfortable for me I I go and I buy. But our message is so powerful that we can sell directly to consumer with our with

Like what we're trying to create is like a directly connection direct connection like what we have like a discussion like the one we have together right now. Showing you our our pieces because we have ⁓ an internal showroom and we sell directly to to the client.

And ⁓ we sit down on our pieces, we we communicate our feelings to the client, what we feel and what we say like and we have we say like if you don't like the pieces you have one hundred days and then we ⁓ we take it back. So it's it's like you trust me, I trust you. It's ⁓ it's a mutual ⁓ it's a mutual bound.

Andrew Valenti (1:06:01)
Yeah.

Davide (1:06:06)
But at least the the ki the the client ⁓ understands also our point of view and start to knowing us. It's it's a harder process of course of sell selling ⁓ but it's more must much more remunerative because then you create a real relationship with the client that sees that like it's like when you it's also when

Yeah, there there is a bound with between us because we like they are buying because they are sharing our values and we are happy that because they they understand why we are doing this thing. The thing is that they are not cheap. Of course they are not cheap. But in order to reduce this gap between the people who want it and who can who cannot afford the peace, like we have ⁓

⁓ two years ago and last year we are also pushing out a couple of models ⁓ that are as much that are much more affordable than the others and ⁓ that can be delivered without any mounting ⁓ any mounting session we just deliver it to the to the client and the client takes it and mounts takes it to the their apartment and they mounts it and it's the Liberal series.

Andrew Valenti (1:07:29)
Okay.

Davide (1:07:30)
Libero it's ⁓ starts more or less at ⁓ like for a big sofa because it's two hundred forty two hundred forty centimeters wide, two hundred thirty, two hundred forty, and one meter deep, so it's it's a big piece. Two modules ⁓ comes out at more or less four thousand euro. So yes, it's an investment, but

Andrew Valenti (1:07:48)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Davide (1:07:59)
Right now like ⁓ I think there are many people that can afford a thing like that. Like

Andrew Valenti (1:08:08)
And I also think that many people are spending that much on fully synthetic couches as well. Like you're gonna find couches more expensive than that that are

Davide (1:08:14)
So an IKEA yeah an IKEA an IKEA sofa right now how much does it cost? One one thousand, one thousand dollars, more or less the same like I d I don't know like ballpark numbers we are giving them. Okay, it's four times. But if I say like this is all natural, the the the we we are selling it directly.

There is no intermedi intermediary. It's a it's a sofa that if we go we will go to to a standard ⁓ marketing procedure would have cost ⁓ probably eight thousand, the ta the double. Since we are giving it directly and we are spending also time to deal with the client and to show him

every single aspect also the production of their particular piece because since we are small we can also make a photograph and videos and showing like all the all the processes tailor made for the client and this is Christine that's my wife that ⁓ that ⁓ implemented this in our ⁓ in our ⁓ produ in in our sell resale process it's like we have to do

the the client needs to understand that they get for the money from for the money they spend they get much more value than another one because if you if you buy ⁓ let's say let's say a sofa from another big brand, name it one ⁓ Cassina, Minotti or whatever, like an Itali let an Italian luxury luxury brand. Okay. We are also third party producers, so we know.

the numbers like if ⁓ a sofa core like production production cost of a sofa is one thousand ⁓ dollar or euro whatever like any the sale price is gonna be six more or less six thousand because they are all middlemen so the person who produces gets one

Then there's there's ⁓ there's the the brand that gets part of it, that gets more or less three point five, four, and then there's the the showroom that gets another two.

six thousand. With us our cost of liberal I I can I can tell you to to you pretty pretty openly because it's the is the one this is why we are doing these things. The cost of liberal is ⁓ is more or less two thousand two thousand five hundred with labor and ⁓ packaging and plus there's plus there is also the delivery but this is another this is another question.

And ⁓ we resell it ⁓ at ⁓ more or less three point five because then there there's VAT, the twenty percent is the cost of V the VAT. So it's ⁓ two thousand three hundred. We resell we resell it at ⁓ four thousand two, four point two, ⁓ three point two and then there's the bet.

And this is like this is our this is why and we want we want to sell them even w if we don't get ⁓ we don't don't don't get much there's not much revenue out of this. Because I think it's also an investment ⁓ and ⁓ it helps ⁓ ourselves to get to catch ⁓ people who just gave ⁓ like I don't want that person say like you're you're building sofas

only for people who can who can permit one. It's not true that because four thousand euro like you can invest thirty thousand euro for a car, can can't you invest four thousand euro for a sofa? You can. And if it breaks we can repair it. And if you like it's because it's made for that.

Andrew Valenti (1:12:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I find so many parallels to the to the food world too.

Davide (1:12:31)
To the agriculture. I go I go to the grocery to I I don't go to big distribution for for groceries usually. Also for I I'm I I eat meat also because ⁓ I I'm not vegetarian. I'm not I don't want to be a guru and I don't want to chase like but responsibility. ⁓ with respon I know the responsibility that bears it, so I go like my grocery shop ⁓

is ⁓ is like is a very small shop we pay it more or less one point five the the big distribution so it's not much more but it's a lot like like but at least I know I know that what I can that that for example that my grocery shop has ⁓ like makes his ⁓ grapes ⁓ by himself in Sicily and then there are

Andrew Valenti (1:13:10)
It is it it adds up, yeah.

Davide (1:13:27)
Like he ha he has the control of the wool ⁓ the wool supply chain. And what he cannot cannot invest by himself, he goes to the to a big market in Milan that by the way, like it's a little bit more costly than the rest, but it's ⁓ it's a huge common market in which people can go and buy stuff. And ⁓ you can it sometimes it's also cheaper than ⁓

if you if you make big ⁓ you because you have to make deals with ⁓ with the with the reseller. It's ⁓ it's ⁓ it's it's ⁓ direct co to consumer but also it's also B2B. There are it's it it's on two it's on two levels. There are so many people that ⁓ get better products at s at at lower prices in that way because you jump the distribution phase. So what we are doing is more or less the same.

Andrew Valenti (1:14:11)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Davide (1:14:25)
And I give a lot of value of this because when there's less and less intermediary you can get a better a better product that reflects much more the value you want to pay for it.

Andrew Valenti (1:14:37)
Yeah, totally. Now I have this leads me into my last question for you. So this is something that I ask everybody that comes on the show, and it's not so far related, but what is one of your favorite food memories?

Davide (1:14:52)
My favorite food memories. I love I love to eat. Food memories is this one. Okay. ⁓ I met my wife ⁓ in 2010 ⁓ in Milan. She like I'm Italian, she's she's German, she's from Hamburg. And she was an expert, and I say, like, but why Italy? Usually you you move

You move north like like the the migration goes go to Sweden if you are German like but she came to Italy for for some for some reason. We met. ⁓ I f fell in love and ⁓ I remember that ⁓ we had a first first first ⁓ appointment ⁓ our first date was was in a restaurant but the but the thing I'm referring to it was our second date.

Because I say like okay, okay, I like you, I want to see where you live. And ⁓ so I'm gonna I'm gonna come and cook for you. And I took everything. Since I didn't didn't even know like that what what she had what appliances she has in her kitchen, I took also pots and and stoves and stuff because I wasn't sure. I I had to cook fish, like I cook

I made a dinner ⁓ of just fish stuff. So I it was ⁓ shrimps. ⁓ I made ⁓ pasta with ⁓ with seafood shrimps and ⁓ some other thing. But the the nice thing is that I I presented myself with all these ⁓ hardware and she say but why do you like w we we German

⁓ used to cook too, you know, like the yes but I didn't know how big are your are your pots and I don't feel I don't feel secure using other stuff. And then I remember that we we shared these things because she was cooking with me. I took all the ingredients, ⁓ all the tomato fresh tomatoes, ⁓ the shrimps that were coming from ⁓ my pescaria. everything like was

Andrew Valenti (1:16:53)
Okay.

Davide (1:17:14)
Like it was also summer, more or less this this period, June, was more or less June. So the tomatoes were ⁓ where there was ⁓ they they the the the aroma of the tomatoes also the smell was so intense and there was we also we used parsley too and it was fill all the all the all the room was fill of ⁓ parsley, garlic

Andrew Valenti (1:17:18)
Mm-hmm.

Davide (1:17:43)
good one and ⁓ and tomatoes. And we were we were cooking together, she was looking at me, we were kissing ⁓ and it was like yes we also eat that night and ⁓ but the the pro s like the make it the the the making of ⁓ was even for maybe even better than the than the dinner by itself. That that's my that's my

Andrew Valenti (1:17:55)
Okay.

Yeah.

Beautiful. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love it. Okay, Davide, grazie mille. ⁓ I'm gonna press stop on the the recording.

Davide (1:18:11)
My experience.

Gracias to Andrew.

Okay.